ReplyMissed something... also as it's so high charges for HVAC specialists (pros) the taxes paid should be even lower, since in US, the wealthier you are, the lower is your tax percentile. Heck, some even own planes ....
Regular Guest
Don't know, coming from Europe and before that Australia, I strongly feel taxes are lowest in US. Hoorah to Uncle Sam!Originally Posted by Dad
About the only thing everyone agrees upon is taxes are too high.It's just a fact of life.
Regular Guest
Missed something... also as it's so high charges for HVAC specialists (pros) the taxes paid should be even lower, since in US, the wealthier you are, the lower is your tax percentile. Heck, some even own planes ....
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
Welcome!
The wealthiest 5% of us pay the majority of taxes. About 49% pay NO taxes, so you are getting incorrect information. An individual who owns his own business pays a higher individual tax rate than does a person who works for someone else.
We are working toward a shift to a consumption tax, and elimination of tax on income. Everyone will be on an equal footing, and everyone will be a taxpayer, even drug dealers, illegal gamblers, and prostitutes.
Now back to our thread.
We are working on improving definitions so all will understand them, and we will then improve our encouragement to follow the rules.
[Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
2 Tim 3:16-17
RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
Member, IAEI
AOP Forum Rules:
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
Regular Guest
A little bit of humor doesn't hurt. I found finally thru the locator service as in "Dad"s signature a a HVAC specialist and have invited him over tomorrow to my place and offered him lunch too, which he declined.... Will keep posted on outcome.
Regular Guest
That would be nice.
While you're at it, maybe you could address this question:
If DIY advice is already prohibited (as always has been), then why is giving advice (non-DIY of course) limited to Pro* members?
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
Example:
Are you a Profession in the field? How do we know? Have you been verified to be in this industry? How does the New Guest know the difference between someone that has been verified and someone that has not? Would a New Guest take the word of another Guest over a Pro?
Regular Guest
Maybe I misunderstood. I thought the reason for the new AOP rules was to avoid liability.
For example, as a HO, if I give another HO my advice that most contractors will oversize and explain why they do it, this advice might actually be more valuable as it comes from the viewpoint of another informed HO.
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
You may have that situation once in a hundred post, maybe less.
The liability will be reduced as we show reasonable care. We show reasonable care by checking to see each Pro is in the business via the Membership Committee. We also show reasonable care to limit what can be said within the rules. If you post outside the rules what liability are you creating for yourself?
Professional Member*
Agreed, a consumption based tax would be best. Good luck getting the government to give up the ability to socially engineer our country through the tax code.
Regular Guest
Then, it seems like you are saying that only the OP (presumably a HO) and Pro* members should post in AOP. If that's the case, why not just state that posts in AOP from anyone else are not allowed, and delete such posts? Ambiguity eliminated and problem solved!
Regular Guest
There, I fixed the AOP rules for ya:
The Professional Members of this site have been vetted as qualified professionals in this industry or qualified consultants (manufacturer's representatives, engineers and the like). To identify those members who have been vetted as qualified, look beside their "Professional Member" title for an Asterisk (*) This designates that they have been approved for posting in the AOP section of this site. Posts from anyone who isn't a Professional Member with an Asterisk (*) by their title should be ignored.
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
That's a very good point but the masses will not allow that. This is a talk site, it's for having conversations. We must do things in such a way to be PC in most cases and we realize there are Pro's hiding as Members. In the past there were Pro's not posting or worse, not joining due to the harassment factor. That changed. This is not HVAC-Harrassment.com
The AOP rules have been tweaked many times and as I have stated over and over it is a work in progress. The rules will be tweaked again. We want this experiment to work. The alternative is to stop all DIY discussion and be hard core about it... then what fun would that be?
I appreciate your questions.
Former Site Administrator- Now Retired
Posts aren't the issue... it's ADVICE or conversation meant to be ADVICE. Anyone, everyone can post. Great try besides that one point.
Another issue with the above would be that we would be sanctioning the pro content which would be a admittance of liability. Work with the AOPC. I'm sure they would enjoy your comments and ingenuity.
Regular Guest
Other than the original question from the OP, I would think that most posts would be considered to be advice of some sort, unless the post is a related question. That advice could be very general (i.e. "the ROI on 20 SEER systems is too long") or specific, which is where you get into the danger of giving advice that could be used for DIY.
Professional Member
Let me ask you to look at things from another point of view for a moment.
Let's put the Professional Member shoe on your foot for a minute. Let's say that, like many here, you've been a member in good standing here for a long time and are suddenly asked to submit to yet another level of membership in order to post the same advice that you've likely been posting for year.
You do so without complaining because you're a guy who tends to follow the rules rather than flaunt them.
Now, here comes a non-pro, non-*, unproven guest of unknown qualifications. This person then is able to post all sorts of advice, some good and some bad.
How does the Professional Member * then look? What is going through that member's head as he reads the posts that either precede or follow his?
What we're looking for is a baseline. The Membership Committee has set qualifications for Professional Membership, and we've set qualifications for AOP Membership. We've also made exceptions for Engineers, Factory Reps and others that may not quite qualify for Professional Technical Membership.
I've got a few other ideas, but they are just that at this time and I don't want them out in public. If they come to fruition, then you'll hear about them.
Regular Guest
OK, I'm not giving advice here, but something like this would clear it up:
The Professional Members of this site have been vetted as qualified professionals in this industry or qualified consultants (manufacturer's representatives, engineers and the like). To identify those members who have been vetted as qualified to give advice in AOP, look beside their "Professional Member" title for an Asterisk (*). This designates that they have been approved for posting advice in the AOP section of this site. Advice from any member who isn't a Professional Member with an Asterisk (*) by their title should be ignored, as the qualifications of such a member have not been established.
Professional Member*
This problem reminds me of the science fiction stuff about the parodox of time travel; trying to restrict free speach while at the same time trying to not restrict it.
What a lousy time we live in. Someone goes to the trouble to provide something nice and beneficial to everyone, but the fear of one stupid law suit ruins it for everyone.
Isn't there some kind of form that this site can make everyone fill out & sign that removes any right they may have from sueing anyone? Pay a lawyer to fool-proof the darn thing, maybe make people fill out a question & answer form that show they've read the thing before signing their rights away?
An answer without a question is meaningless.
Information without understanding is useless.
You can lead a horse to water............
http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com
AOP Committee/Professional Member*
Never underestimate the ability of an attorney to mount a frivolous lawsuit.
To be fair, most people have no business reaching into any kind of AC unit that is not based on delivery of blocks of ice. Even when someone is lucid and apparently competent as an adult in life, they may not have all of the experiential underpinnings to carry out a suggested repair or diagnostic check.
That's why the best advice continues to be, "check our contractor map or contact a Pro in your area, and here are some ideas to discuss with him."
[Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
2 Tim 3:16-17
RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist
Member, IAEI
AOP Forum Rules:
Regular Guest
Dad - I understand and appreciate all that's being posted. But here's a suggestion: Why not create a separate thread which specifically caters to DIY by HO and any advice a pro might or might not want to give?
There are some things which can be and is being and will be attempted by HO. The pros here might or might not want to advice for it or against it. Either way, as you stated, this is a TALK forum.
Why is it you're explicitly prohibiting anything and everything that's DIY ? Is it because you fear there are many simple things which professionals have made it complex in order NOT to loose revenue stream or is it because you fear a HO is essentially a incompetent and HVAC is truly a rocket science and thus left to experts?
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