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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
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    Yuma, AZ
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    Speeding up the grille sealing process

    Great product to check out for duct leakage testing: Vent Cap Systems
    http://www.aikencolon.com/Vent-Cap.html
    Check the video. I think I could rig up a pole tool to install them on high ceilings.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    Mark Twain
    More at: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/education/

  2. #15
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    Jul 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimj View Post
    Lynn are you working on only APS referrals or are you advertising for some of your leads?
    We offer it on service and maintenance calls. We do door hangers on the homes adjacent to those calls before we leave. That is basically it.

    Of course we mention our BPI testing services on all sales calls as well.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    Mark Twain
    More at: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/education/

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
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    3,320
    so energy raters test duct leakage
    and ______________ do not? auditors?
    the two have always been interchangeable in my world.
    rater/auditor same difference.

    vermiculite in attic...don't think I've ever seen that, but I can
    see why you wouldn't want to depressurize in that case.
    I hate to depressurize with IC cans and cellulose when ho's
    have breathing problems..circulating that borate laden newspaper
    dust bothers me, and I'm leaving the house.

    too bad there are no absolutes...as it all can change from house to house.
    I am always looking for the 'answer'. the one and only...but it seems that
    absolute answer is...depends. LOL!

    I have found that depressurizing when thermal scan works well.
    areas like knee walls turning red in front of the ho's eyes
    re-inforces why I recommended insulating and air sealing knee walls
    and between floors. (in the few times we have IR'd a house)
    as I've said before, it is a good visual for ho to back up all the things
    that I've told them.

    Ted,
    when I first started I did ratings and low income weatherization.
    it took both to support myself. as I learned more about ratings
    it became the bigger part of the two.
    the biggest switch in thinking is realizing that energy ratings
    are a niche market.
    ho's have to have money of their own to invest in their home.
    this is not the first time homebuyer's market, but second home
    where comfort health and lower cost to live are factors on
    the ho's mind.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    4,763
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    so energy raters test duct leakage
    and ______________ do not? auditors?
    the two have always been interchangeable in my world.
    rater/auditor same difference.

    ENERGY AUDITS IN NY ALMOST NEVER INCLUDE DUCT WORK. UNDER THE NEW "FREE" AUDIT, I SUSPECT I AM THE ONLY ONE IN THE WHOLE STATE TO HAVE INCLUDED A FREE DUCT BLASTER TEST, AND I WON'T BE DOING IT AGAIN.

    IF RATERS DO FREE DUCT BLASTER TESTS, I'D LIKE TO HEAR ABOUT IT.

    I have found that depressurizing when thermal scan works well.
    areas like knee walls turning red in front of the ho's eyes
    re-inforces why I recommended insulating and air sealing knee walls
    and between floors. (in the few times we have IR'd a house)
    as I've said before, it is a good visual for ho to back up all the things
    that I've told them.

    DEPRESSURIZING WORKS REALLY WELL, DID SOMEONE SAY YOU HAD TO PRESSURIZE FOR IR?

    Ted,

    ho's have to have money of their own to invest in their home.
    this is not the first time homebuyer's market, but second home
    where comfort health and lower cost to live are factors on
    the ho's mind.
    Yep, the people that realize how messed up their first house was and get that it doesn't have to be that way. Not everybody has to experience living in a crappy house to know they would prefer to avoid it, but that certainly helps.

    Unfortunately, with free audits, the commitment level of the homeowner is all over the board.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,978
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Older homes may have vermiculite insulation in the attic, so a de-pressurization test is not allowed. Also, a pressurization use of the blower door can be usefull for an infrared imaging of the attic to detect air leakage from the conditioned area.
    To clearify this statement about pressurization of the house for IR imaging, please click the following link and observe slide #44, along with the presenters comments at about the 41 minute mark of the presentation. The only way to get the kind of IR pic he took while in the attic was to have the home pressurized. The pic is a great way to prove to some people that blown celulose in the attic will not eiliminate air leakage. There are insulation companies in my area that informs homeowners that it does.
    http://ecw.mediasite.com/mediasite/S...75f089096f9b1d
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  6. #19
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    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
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    ted..you hollering at me??

    I don't do free testing. I charge for all testing, inspections
    and recommendations above and beyond what is covered in
    my basic rating price.

    as raters we do house infiltration and duct testing.
    this is the minimum we can do.

    my understanding from various BPI recruiters was that their
    standards were the same. it has been suprising to learn
    differently.

    there are always going to be raters/auditors doing free stuff.
    in N.O. the raters there and Entergy (big utility company)
    offer walk thru inspections, tier one
    minimal testing tier two
    and full blown rating tier three.
    each costs more per step up.
    tier one is prolly $100 or less
    tier two ??
    tier three, several hundred.
    we aren't allowed to work on any of the homes we
    rate. this was taken out of the equation a long time ago
    because of the conflict of interest it causes.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    ted..you hollering at me??

    FUNNY!

    NO, TOO LAZY TO DO THE COLOR THING, SORRY.

    I don't do free testing. I charge for all testing, inspections
    and recommendations above and beyond what is covered in
    my basic rating price.

    as raters we do house infiltration and duct testing.
    this is the minimum we can do.


    my understanding from various BPI recruiters was that their
    standards were the same. it has been suprising to learn
    differently.

    I THINK THIS IS WHERE DEFINITIONS GET BLURRY. DIAGNOSTIC STANDARDS VS. MINIMUM DIAGNOSTIC WORK REQUIRED ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS. WE SIMPLY DON'T HAVE TIME TO PERFORM ALL OF IT. REALLY, YOU'D NEED 2 PEOPLE. REMEMBER, WE HAVE FURNISHED HOMES WE ARE RUNNING AROUND. SHOE SAVERS ON AND OFF, MOVING BEDS, FURNITURE AND CRAP, ALL THE WHILE ATTEMPTING TO EDUCATE THE HOMEOWNER. YOU HAVE NONE OF THESE THINGS, RIGHT? JUST EASY ACCESS TO SUPPLIES AND RETURNS MEANS YOU HAVE DUCT DIAGNOSTICS EASY!!

    ONE THING THAT CONSUMES A HUGE AMOUNT OF TIME FOR US IS HEALTH AND SAFETY. GET RID OF DINOSAUR DRAFT APPLIANCES AND A LOT OF TIME IS FREED UP.

    there are always going to be raters/auditors doing free stuff.
    in N.O. the raters there and Entergy (big utility company)
    offer walk thru inspections, tier one
    minimal testing tier two
    and full blown rating tier three.
    each costs more per step up.
    tier one is prolly $100 or less
    tier two ??
    tier three, several hundred.
    we aren't allowed to work on any of the homes we
    rate. this was taken out of the equation a long time ago
    because of the conflict of interest it causes.
    I'm trying to build the consultative model and it is a fair challenge. Homeowners like the fact I don't have an axe to grind, but I do want to participate through the end because I've seen so many points of potential failure after design. I don't want energy results to fail because of poor implementation.

    But here is where the big issue of compensation gets hairy. How to earn more than $10 an hour and pay for overhead? Insurance, accreditation, equipment, etc... it really adds up.

    One great building science guy I know, took some of the BPI classes with him, he went into rating because they couldn't figure out how to make the retrofit program pay.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  8. #21
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,320
    Ted,this may not be the time to rehash this
    on the public fourm.

    saying that instead of an audit (your description)
    homeowners should hire an energy rater, if they
    want more than minimun information.

    resnet & bpi have the same description for an audits' job.
    utility companies blur the lines to confuse the homeowners
    and downrate the service. we all pay for the $200 audit, but
    the utility's system charge is $500 minimun per audit.

    your job description of an audit, is less than I did for
    low income weatherization. 10 years ago.
    Last edited by energy_rater_La; 09-16-2011 at 12:31 PM.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    Frustrating, ain't it?

    The difference between Home Performance and Weatherization is Weatherization is a program that provides repairs the house needs at no cost to the homeowner. You pretty much know what you are "selling" after the first walk through, and everyone gets fair compensation for their efforts.

    This ain't weatherization work scope building, this ain't code compliance or building a rating for a new home. This is diagnostics for a mercurial homeowner who (now that audits are free to them) may have no interest in contracting work. No skin in the game.

    So now the game for many is "will this turn to work?" Otherwise I'm doing a little as possible because the audit fee doesn't cover (or barely covers) my costs.

    BTW, I get what you do for duct testing. Do you get that it's a ton easier on an empty house? Telling me it takes you less than an hour to mask, I don't know what to do with that unless you want congratulations.

    I know you are trying to be helpful but I don't understand how, something is getting lost in translation. I don't get the relevance of how quickly you can mask ductwork as you've already said you wouldn't do it for free either. If you think I should use that to price a service nobody wants to pay anything for it's also not useful because I'm not working on empty houses. The biggest thing is it's not a required test so there is no money to pay for it.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  10. #23
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,320
    Ted
    as you said:

    "I'm doing a little as possible because the audit fee doesn't cover (or barely covers) my costs."

    that says a lot.
    I'm pretty much done arguing diagnostics with you Ted.

    just a couple of things..
    1) -the houses I test are not empty. I do very few new construction homes.
    don't know how that assumption came about..oh, unless a unicorn with training wheels told you that.

    2) - again your words...from this thread..not taken out of context from another..
    "REMEMBER, WE HAVE FURNISHED HOMES WE ARE RUNNING AROUND. SHOE SAVERS ON AND OFF, MOVING BEDS, FURNITURE AND CRAP, ALL THE WHILE ATTEMPTING TO EDUCATE THE HOMEOWNER. YOU HAVE NONE OF THESE THINGS, RIGHT? JUST EASY ACCESS TO SUPPLIES AND RETURNS MEANS YOU HAVE DUCT DIAGNOSTICS EASY!!"


    youve heard the expression..never assume?
    that I have none of these 'things'..WRONG.
    while I forgo the shoe savers..no one educates the homeowner for me.
    I'm selling an actual service, just me doing the selling..not a huge corp that uses my services to promote their agenda.

    Rarely does anyone move furniture for me..I do it myself.
    haul ladders, walk ceiling joists, crawl under houses.
    easy is not a part of my job description.

    if you'd care to continue to share your professionalism with the general
    public here please do.
    if you'd like to continue to attack me on the closed forums..again please do.

    __________________________________________________ ________________

    I do apologize to all for the thread once again being turned into
    this level of bickering.

    if you take nothing else from this thread, do understand that
    there are truly unbiased people willing to provide the level of
    service you choose to purchase.

    while utility companies do want to save their captive ratepayers
    money, understand that they don't want to cut their profits
    in half.
    I've worked with several utility companies on and off over
    the years.
    while it is good business for them to save their customers
    15-20% of utility costs they are not interested in cutting their bills
    more than that. they are in business to make a profit.
    just like everyone else.

    this is why they sub-contract to auditors.
    the auditors pay the cost of being in business out of the stipend
    they allow them to charge.
    they control the savings the homeowner achieves..and put the auditor
    on a short leash. win/win.
    auditor doesn't comply..get another one.

    it is to the utility provider's benefit to not address duct leakage.
    while recommending that you use cfl's and weatherstrip saves
    you money it is pennies and nickles.

    when you understand that the hvac system is the largest consumer
    of electricity and that sealing 30% ductleakage saves hundreds of dollars
    it is fairly obvious why they chose to leave it alone.

    __________________________________________________ _____________

    Lynn, I have seen the vent cap site before.
    I contacted them to see what size caps they produced
    about a year ago. unfortunately at that time the sizes were
    limited. most of the houses I test have square grills
    not rectangular. but there are occasions that the grills are mixed.
    it would take alot of different sizes for me to use.
    I just don't have the room to carry them. but there is no doubt that
    it is an ingenuous product. I'm sure they will do well.
    combining with pressure pans is a great idea
    as this is one of the methods that RESNET approves.

    a builder in NC sent me their link.
    while it starts out with new construction it also covers
    existing homes briefly.
    I thought it was a comprehensive quick overview
    of how building science applies to both.
    note that it is not a lot of info, but links are provided
    at bottom of page to continue reading.

    http://www.springtimehomes.com/green...BlowerDoorTest

    have a good weekend everyone.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    Ted
    as you said:

    "I'm doing a little as possible because the audit fee doesn't cover (or barely covers) my costs."

    that says a lot.
    I'm pretty much done arguing diagnostics with you Ted.
    I don't see any attacks I've leveled against you (yet...), that was not my intent. For you, mister clipped responses, to take that position, is a bit surprising. I thought you and I got along. I didn't realize we arguing, that this was a disagreement about diagnostics. I didn't realize this was an argument.

    Seems you parsed through and taken things out of context. I see what you are doing.

    So now the game for many is "will this turn to work?" Otherwise I'm doing a little as possible because the audit fee doesn't cover (or barely covers) my costs
    When I say that I'm referring to what I'm seeing in the marketplace. If you want to make this a conversation about what I do, I still do my audits using TREAT, not the "quick audit tool"; I still do all the testing even when it's obvious the audit will not be leading to a "quick sale," but I think what one person does is not as important as what the majority do. And what the majority does is driven by the marketplace. If I need to make that plainer for you, let me know.



    I have very little understanding of what a HERS rater does, and was hoping to understand better. I suspect you may have the same lack of understanding when it comes to the program I work within, but you choose to jump to judgmental?

    OK. I see. You feel I'm not doing something I should be doing, that you get paid to do but I don't. I'm see that you think our jobs are somehow the same.
    Last edited by tedkidd; 09-16-2011 at 08:56 PM.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

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