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  1. #14
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    Feb 2010
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    Cal
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    Most homeowners don't care about the calcs on retrofit projects until it's too late and can't/won't justify the cost when another contractor is 1 or 5 G's less.
    New is all on you, so the calc accuracy period is moot when their attorney calls.

    Scope of work on retrofit work matters too. You propose to replace a furnace and they don't want to discuss other issues... or let's say you overlook something minor. As long as you weren't compensated for the work, it could be argued that it's not warrantied. Double the price and offer a money back/satisfaction guarantee on every project and hope they don't call?

    Gross mis-sizing/application is obviously an entirely different situation that we have all seen, heard about, and dealt with. The guy that puts 5 tons of cooling on a 3 ton duct system probably has a tail light warranty.

  2. #15
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    New work or retro fit?

    Why do you ask and are you thinking new work where the R values are known or retro where your J if done at all is based on a SWAG where the last word is guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Is there any language in your warranty regarding a manual J being accurate within a certain percentage, rooms being of equal temp throughout to a certain percentage, that ductwork/airflow is within tolerances to a certain percentage, that the equipment is correct for their design conditions etc...? Basically that the system is operating the way it should and at its design efficicency. Like if 2 rooms of the home is not getting the proper amount of cfms & at the proper temp per the room by room manual J, does the warranty cover it?
    The code has language in ti that covers new construction, but with you're living with existing duct that really is the element that makes new equipment a "system" how does one warrant what they have not done and can not see.
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  3. #16
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
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    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    Why do you ask and are you thinking new work where the R values are known or retro where your J if done at all is based on a SWAG where the last word is guess.



    The code has language in ti that covers new construction, but with you're living with existing duct that really is the element that makes new equipment a "system" how does one warrant what they have not done and can not see.
    BINGO Genduct on the statement about the existing ductwork being the final & most important aspect of what makes a "system" a system. Of course YOU would know that better than anyone. I was refering to retro replacement.

    I'm not really agreeing with you on the SWAG part on performing a manual J on existing homes. To say that is true is to say BPI, RESNET, Energy audits, & building science is all a bunch of bunk.

    Don't know what "The code" you mention refers to. I live in a county in Missouri where my cat can pull a permit for an HVAC install. No mechanical licensing,and code? we don't need no stinking "code" here. LOL.

    So, if your question is "how does one warrant what they have not done and can not see", then my question is how do homeowners protect themselves from paying for high efficiency replacement systems that fail, or fail to operate at their rated efficiency levels? I'm sure the contractors selling them these replacement systems are telling them to expect great things out of their new high efficiency systems, so why shouldn't they be expected to warranty those claims?
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  4. #17
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    The code language says something simple like

    maintaining 68 min winter and 80 max summer.

    As far as J is concerned, you do understand that it is a simplified calc with no real modeling like with the commercial calcs?
    Meaning that J doesn't care what side the opaque surfaces are on it just simplifies the heat transfer for the walls. It does consider glass orientation and reports "excursions" when there is a lot of glass on one elevation but the real Modeling thing you should know is the nat infiltration value. How fast is the wind blowing or heat duct ransfer and leakage impact or ...?
    Thing is it does a reasonable job not a scientific model.
    I am not arguing with reasonable I just don't think anyone should mistake the level of science in these calcs is all. It is a range not an exact number
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  5. #18
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    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    PS the customers

    will be suspicious if you don't offer the latest greatest most efficient....
    They will almost insist or they will feel like you are chating them
    Would that they (consumers) were better informed about the real p[ayback when the cost of owning and repairing is added to the operating cost
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    11

    York gas furnace TM9X

    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Not talking about the equipment manufacturers warranty here. Their warranty covers their equipment, but how about all the other stuff involved that is up to the contractor to do to ensure the equipment will do its job, like an accurate manual J & D & S & T?
    What does a homeowner need to see in that warranty to ensure they are covered if the equipment selected is not appropriate per the manual S, or is oversized per manual J, or the ductwork is grossly undersized per Manual d?
    Any homeowners with existing warranties please feel free to post the details, but remember the rules here and do not include anything that would identify the contractor or person involved; company names, peoples names or phone numbers etc... is not allowed.
    _______________

    Thanks very much for the invitation. We are currently considering replacing a 57 year old Rheem furnace (21,000 btu) in a split-ranch home that is 960 s.f. An estimator came out today. He spent 1.5 hours with us, measured our rooms and looked at the windows. After suggesting only two brands, York and Amana, and two efficiencies 80% and 95%, we seemed to veer towards the 95% York 2 ton (24000 btu) TM9X furnace with a [Airline?] humidifier. That furnace has a limited lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger, 10 years on unit parts and 1 year on labor. The contractor offers several guarantees: 1). an indoor temperature of 70 degrees when 0 degrees outside. 2). if the heat exchanger fails in the first ten years, they'll install a new furnace. 3). if the system breaks down during the first two years and leaves us w/o heat overnight, they'll pay us $500. 4). they'll respect our property, lawns, shrubbery, floors, walls, furniture, etc will be protected. And finally, 5). A "2 Year 100% Money-Back Guarantee" if the equipment does not perform as stated. We appreciate the fact that this family company has been in business 60 years and that they carefully screen their help, background check and drug check.

    They state in writing that they'll test-fire and burn off the new furnace in their warehouse, place the new furnace on rubber pads on top of bricks. Connect the furnace to existing gas piping with a properly tagged shut-off valve external from the furnace and use an electronic leak detector to assure no gas leaks. They'll connect the existing electrical circuit to the furnace with an on/off switch. Install properly sized sheet metal vent connector piping or PVC exhaust and intake piping with a "stylish exterior wall cap." Install new sheet metal vent connector piping for the water heater. Make sure all piping, ductwork and furnace cabinet will be level and plumb. And complete the testing of the new system including recording of performance data ready for operation.

    This all sounds good to me, but what do I know? The estimator did not do "blower door testing," nor did he test the duct system and air flow. But we can get a low-cost energy efficiency audit with our local utility company and will probably do that before signing any contract.

    As I understand, the York TM9X has a single stage gas valve and a variable speed fan motor. This model sounds okay and I'm fairly comfortable with the company having used them before for plumbing. But again, is this a reasonable choice? There's nothing like talking to someone who knows the score and has no dog in the race. Thanks in advance for any replies.
    Last edited by Velma; 09-16-2011 at 07:42 PM. Reason: Wrongly mentioned pricing.

  7. #20
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
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    Velma, the rules don't allow pricing either. If the "edit" button option is still under your post, please hit "edit" and remove the pricing, or a moderator will have to do it for you.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    11
    Sorry tips. It's done.

  9. #22
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    Location
    Arnold mo
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    What area are you in Velma? Keeping this short, I'd have to say I see a red flag in your contractor seeing a need to put in a humidifier. Under normal circumstances, a home that needs a humidifier is a home that has too much air leakage to the outside. A normal home creates a lot of humidity internally. If the air becomes too dry in your home in winter, it is due to too much colder dryer air entering your home through the leaks in it. If they are promising your new furnace will keep your home warm with this much air leakage, then it means you are having to pay for too large of a furnace, along with too much monthly cost to run it, to over-compensate for that air leakage.
    I also wouldn't put much store in a low cost energy audit provided by a local utility company. Not everything called an energy audit is really an "energy audit". I would recommend finding a local energy auditing company that is BPI or RESNET certified, and preferably independent. By independent I mean someone who only does the auditing, not the work. Either way, try & find someone in your area that is BPI or RESNET certified and has experience performing energy audits. A full scale energy audit will perform a blower door test and test to make sure your combustion appliances will vent safely. They will also evaluate the insulation levels & values of your walls, ceiling, crawlspace etc... and determine what are the most cost-effective ways to "keep your heat in your home where it belongs" rather than letting it leak out and cost you more money & make you uncomfortable.
    A home is not that much unlike the human body; the thicker & tighter the blanket, the warmer you are.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    11
    Tips, I'm in the Kansas City area. I did wonder about the humidifier but not overly because our current furnace has a humidifier attached. And after the estimator mentioned replacing the humidifier too, I told him the home was dry in the winter time. Of course, he didn't explain why that might be the case, as you did. Instead he said the humidifier would help. So yes, now I will now look into a BPI or RESNET certified independent auditing company. Thanks very kindly for your detailed response.

  11. #24
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    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
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    3,969
    Here is a link that should give you a good start. Again, I would recommend one that only performs energy audits, but that shouldn't be the only criteria. Experience counts for a lot. The good thing about using one that is a Home Performance with Energy Star member, is that the program does monitor the work of its members, to a point, and do kick people out if they don't produce good work.
    http://www.kcenergy.org/HPwESContractorList.pdf

    I'm not familiar with the programs in your area, but it may be that these members are actually the ones that do the low cost energy audits you mentioned earlier; if so, that is o.k, as long as you are getting a full scale energy audit, and not just a walk through by a person with a clipboard.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Waffleville
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    10,339
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    What is interesting to me is that not one homeowner has posted on this thread. With the amount of homeowners who have threads complaining of being screwed over on their installs, and with all the others with questions concerning a contemplated system replacement, you would think they would see some value in finding out what a good warranty entails.
    read the rules for the AOP forum.

    only professional member with a * are allowed to post replies to questions that homeowners or non professional * members pose.

    we can move this thread to an area that would allow for such a response, if you like.
    If Guns Kill People, Do Pencils Misspell Words?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An2a1...eature=related

    Before we work on artificial intelligence why don't we do something about natural stupidity?

  13. #26
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    Sep 2009
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    Arnold mo
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    Quote Originally Posted by beachtech View Post
    read the rules for the AOP forum.

    only professional member with a * are allowed to post replies to questions that homeowners or non professional * members pose.

    we can move this thread to an area that would allow for such a response, if you like.
    A little clearification on this if you would. Are you saying I should not have posted my thread in this forum because I am not a homeowner or non professional *? Or, are you saying I shouldn't be surprised that homeowners havn't responded to this thread due to them not being "professionals with a *" and thus are not allowed to respond?

    I know this forum is for homeowners to ask questions of pro's, but I am not sure this forum forbids a pro to ask questions of homeowners. If this forum is not the place for a pro to ask questions of homeowners, then please do move this thread to the appropriate forum for that.

    If my thread is allowed in this forum, then I see nothing in the rules that forbids homeowners from having a normal discussion concerning the topic of warranties and to provide info on what their warranties cover. It is not as if they are giving out advice. Thanks in advance for any clearification.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

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