Compatibility

[scottyb]

Hi all . I am looking for a replacement for r410a I see a government building in Germany won awards for a propane/butane system (similar to LPG) I got one of the fridgie's to do a risk analysis on using this system and came up acceptable. (We have much more risk someone leaving the gas stove on)

What it comes down to is compatibility I am told 410a uses a synthetic oil aswell as the different pressures. Because lpg runs at a lower pressure one would think there would be less stress on the system however will the compressor work at these lower pressures? Is the synthetic oil compatible with lpg. Has anyone had anything to do with these eco friendly airconditioners?

[HVACTechNC]

Be careful of the large explosion...
IMC requires all kinds of alarms and shutdowns on systems using propane (or any other flammable refrigerant). I would avoid it, not worth the risk. Why are you looking for an alternate to 410a anyways?

[motoguy128]

Well at least a homeowner can smell a leak in their evaporator coil.

In all seriousness. A malfunction or operator error of a gas cooking appliance is now the same as a potentially explosive situation in a refrigeration system where a equally performing alternative is available. (gas stove tops provide more BTU's and can change temp quicker than gas counterparts... ie they cook better).

That's my opinion at least.

[jpsmith1cm]

Well at least a homeowner can smell a leak in their evaporator coil.

In all seriousness. A malfunction or operator error of a gas cooking appliance is now the same as a potentially explosive situation in a refrigeration system where a equally performing alternative is available. (gas stove tops provide more BTU's and can change temp quicker than gas counterparts... ie they cook better).

That's my opinion at least.

Actually, the smell of propane is an added chemical. Pure propane is odorless.



Now, R-290 (Propane) is a great refrigerant, as is R-717, but they both also have some serious drawbacks. With Ammonia, it's toxicity.


Are you looking to install propane into a system designed for R410a? If so, I would STRONGLY suggest that you do NOT do this.

If you insist, please be sure to call your insurance provider and update him on your plans before proceeding. I'd be willing to bet he will have something to say about it.

[motoguy128]

Actually, the smell of propane is an added chemical. Pure propane is odorless.

I actually did know that... I was just trying to be funny without being overly accurate.


Could you imagine Ammonia being used in residential? Just a small leak would just about knock you down.


You know, Hydrogen is a lot better for lifting airships than Helium.

[jpsmith1cm]

I actually did know that... I was just trying to be funny without being overly accurate.


Could you imagine Ammonia being used in residential? Just a small leak would just about knock you down.


You know, Hydrogen is a lot better for lifting airships than Helium.

Well, some do not know that.

In the interest of accuracy....

[hvacvegas]

Hi all . I am looking for a replacement for r410a I see a government building in Germany won awards for a propane/butane system (similar to LPG) I got one of the fridgie's to do a risk analysis on using this system and came up acceptable. (We have much more risk someone leaving the gas stove on)

What it comes down to is compatibility I am told 410a uses a synthetic oil aswell as the different pressures. Because lpg runs at a lower pressure one would think there would be less stress on the system however will the compressor work at these lower pressures? Is the synthetic oil compatible with lpg. Has anyone had anything to do with these eco friendly airconditioners?

no.

and your going to:

A. Have serious problems finding a residential unit that runs on such (residentially) unusual refrigerant.

B. Have serious problems finding a contractor willing to install said unit.

C. Have serious problems finding anyone willing to convert a 410 unit to propane.

D. Add the risk of injury, to a semi-harmless refrigerant.

E. Have issues keeping your insurrance.

F. Have service issues.

G. Be stuck with that contractor, since you won't find anyone else.

H. Have issues selling the house down the road.

I. Incure a non-needed additional cost.

J. Have some issues if it kills a kid trying to the LP.

K. If you covert from 410, warranty issues.

Or:

If your worried about the possible GWP, go geo.
It might be cheaper.

[beachtech]

the pressure within the system does not cause stress on the system.

compression ratios and systems are designed and enginerred to run as they do.

lower pressure does not neccessarily mean less energy consumption. lower compression ratios mean less work to pump, but proper evaporation and heat exchange must be achieved for efficiency as well.

using flammable gas as a refrigerant is extremely dangerous, and there are very good reasons why those types of systems are not utilized state side.

[scottyb]

Hi all thx for your replies and advice. The fridgey did his own research and found that there was no compatibility issues with synthetic oil used. For safety's sake a low pressure switch was wired into it as well that dropped power and set an alarm off.

I actually checked the job out and was told that they had to put about 100 PSI of gas into it before it started working properly (I think they were only expecting to put half that in)

With many government jobs you have to be greener then grass and we will be replacing all the air conditioners where it is permitted by law. (Australia has a set of stipulations where hydrocarbons can and cannot go)


Oh BTW the airconditioner is more efficient now - it uses 3A less then it did before (almost 20%) With these figures the aircon will pay itself off in savings just after a few years. I am surprised they don't ban all these other gases that are harmful to the environment and run inefficient and force a changeover (BBQ gas is very cheap) the cost of a pressure switch and relay to gut the power is also negligible (cost $ for a solid state relay and pressure switch )

Anyways alls well that ends well

[motoguy128]

I thought 410a was considered was a lot better for the environment than R22.... and R22 was better than R12.

[scottyb]

From what is known about r410a it doesn't harm the ozone layer but has high global warming impacts. Where lpg products have no global warming properties as well as no ozone harming qualities. Added to this the much improved efficiency of the AC makes the choice is easy. If you think global warming is all crap just do it for your back pocket.

[hvacvegas]

Hi all thx for your replies and advice. The fridgey did his own research and found that there was no compatibility issues with synthetic oil used. For safety's sake a low pressure switch was wired into it as well that dropped power and set an alarm off.

I actually checked the job out and was told that they had to put about 100 PSI of gas into it before it started working properly (I think they were only expecting to put half that in)

With many government jobs you have to be greener then grass and we will be replacing all the air conditioners where it is permitted by law. (Australia has a set of stipulations where hydrocarbons can and cannot go)


Oh BTW the airconditioner is more efficient now - it uses 3A less then it did before (almost 20%) With these figures the aircon will pay itself off in savings just after a few years. I am surprised they don't ban all these other gases that are harmful to the environment and run inefficient and force a changeover (BBQ gas is very cheap) the cost of a pressure switch and relay to gut the power is also negligible (cost $18.75 for a solid state relay and pressure switch )

Anyways alls well that ends well

100PSI is not a measurement of volume.

No one is worried about mixing the oil. People are worried about compression ratios, and heat transfer.

Most systems already have a low pressure switch.

What conditions was the air conditioner ran before, and after?

R410 does not have a high GWP. It has some, but your overstating it.
Nor is R410 an "inefficient" refrigerant.

What happens if this unit breaks down in 2 years?

who is "the fridgey"?

[HVACTechNC]

Be careful of the large explosion...
IMC requires all kinds of alarms and shutdowns on systems using propane (or any other flammable refrigerant). I would avoid it, not worth the risk. Why are you looking for an alternate to 410a anyways?

Be careful of the large explosion. It is not worth the risk. Early refrigeration systems used both propane and ammonia as refrigerants. They were not ideal for a variety of reasons, flammability and toxicity for these two examples, and that is what started the search for man-made refrigerants that were safer and more efficient. If ammonia and propane were safe, effective refrigerants than DuPont and Dow would not have sought out alternatives.

[motoguy128]

Wiki says R410a is does have a high GWP. But at what quantities are we talking about? I think with global warming we're sometimes barking up the wrong tree. Rather than focusing on energy conservation and looking at net lifecycle energy use, as well as looking at controlling certain natural sources of GHG's, we go after "easy targets".


You want rational solutions to cut CO2 emissions. Lets try reducing the global human population which will then reduce both methane and CO2 emmissions from livestock and humans.


In my opinons, naturla soruces of Co2 outweigh human produced soruces to such a degree that they are nearly insignificant. We human like to think we cna control the planet, but in reality, we're still just along for the ride. The eco system is far, far more adapatable than we give it credit for.

Normal climate shift cannot be rules out as a cause for flucuating global temperatures. We simply have too little data over to small of a time peridod to prove otherwise. There are too many vairables in the equation that we cannot predict.

There's also far to much money involved on both sides of the argument to trust any of the conclusions that have been drawn.

[motoguy128]

If you want a green solution, then build a highly insulated home with a large heavily insulated water tight room the basement. Have it filled wiht blocks of ice in the winter and ciculate air across in in the summer for AC. Problem solved with 300 year old technology. Up until the early 1900's, they used to have huge ice harvest all across the Mississippi river from about where I live on North to St. Paul, MN. Everyone had ice boxes to keep food fresh year round. Homes were built ot take advantage of fresh ventilation. That's why most homes had over 25% of wall area covered in windows compared to under 20% now.

1 ton of cooling capacity is about equivalent to melting 1 ton of ice... hence the term. So at 35 cubic feet per ton in a home that needs on average 1 ton of cooling every 24 hours lets say you'll need 300 cubic feet of ice. So you could fill a if you could fill a 20'x25' room with water, and turn it into basically a tube and shell heat exchanger with a plunum of stainless steel pipes. Then you circulate indoor air for cooling in the summer, then circulate air that below freezing through it in the winter to refreeze the ice.

To improve latent capacity, you could even mix in a small ratio to propylene glycol to lower the freezing point a little.

Heck you can even use the condensate to flush your toilets and water the garden if you want.


You know, the above idea doesn't sound crazy with some newer highly efficient designs. Bulding a water tight room and some thin wall SS tubing doesn't sound any more expensive than drilling wells for geothermal and you don't need a compressor to transfer the energy.

[HVACTechNC]

You want rational solutions to cut CO2 emissions. Lets try reducing the global human population which will then reduce both methane and CO2 emmissions from livestock and humans.

Curious: Which people should we kill to achieve this global human population reduction? We were commanded by God to be fruitful and multiply. Recently many stuffy-headed intellectuals tell us we are overpopulated and will destroy the planet. Whatever happened to trusting God that he created a planet capable of sustaining us? Im not advocating abusing the planet, be a good steward, but are you going to tell me that my 6 children are the precursor for the planet's demise? Im sorry sir, I dont agree with that line of reasoning?

I think I just opened a can of worms...

[motoguy128]

Curious: Which people should we kill to achieve this global human population reduction? We were commanded by God to be fruitful and multiply. Recently many stuffy-headed intellectuals tell us we are overpopulated and will destroy the planet. Whatever happened to trusting God that he created a planet capable of sustaining us? Im not advocating abusing the planet, be a good steward, but are you going to tell me that my 6 children are the precursor for the planet's demise? Im sorry sir, I dont agree with that line of reasoning?

I think I just opened a can of worms...

You could try something crazy like forcing certain 3rd world contries to be self sufficient or stop having 5 children when they can only afford or have hte resources to feed 1. Actually, 300 years ago most of these cultures were self sufficient. European colonization and the ensuing revolutions and political instability have resulted in populations that struggle to survive.


But realistically, the panet WILL limit the human population one way or another. We cannot destroy the planet. We can however make it unihabitable or limit the maximum ppulation it can sustain. But either way, it will recover.

Look at a small pond stocked with fish. if there isn't enough food, the fish die. If it gets too hot, the oxygen levels drop and the weakest fish all die off and equilibrium is restored.


For humans, at some point a super virus will come along that we can't treat or the population will get large enough that the food supply can swing low enough to result in widesread famine.

It will limit itself one way or another. I suppose it doesn't hurt to be proactive in preventing that. But I think a little more common sense and better using our reasearch dollars woudl be more beneficial.


For example... "everyone" knows you must replace old supposely inefficeint windows with new repalcement windows. But look at hte lifecycle costs. You had a wood window, that's serviceable and cna be made jsut as tight as a new window. Add a strom window of recut the sashes to install double glazes glass and you have equal or better performance. On theflip side, how much energy and petrolium does it take to fabricate a vinyl window frame. How long iwll it last before it has to be repalced? Does the incremental energy it saves over the window it replaces offset the energy needed to fabricate it? What is the impact of putting the old window into a landfill? Now, every 20-30 years you'll have to throw those repalcement windows into a landfill too.

[HVACTechNC]

Respectfully sir I am not ok with "forcing" anyone to stop having children. What gives me or you or anyone else the right to do that? I do agree that the thought is crazy though.

Also, if a supervirus or some other form of the natural balancing of the population is going to come along at some point and put everything into its proper numbers, what would be the point of trying to limit the population of our own abilities? Seems like God will reduce it when he sees fit anyway.

[hvacvegas]

Wiki says R410a is does have a high GWP. But at what quantities are we talking about? I think with global warming we're sometimes barking up the wrong tree. Rather than focusing on energy conservation and looking at net lifecycle energy use, as well as looking at controlling certain natural sources of GHG's, we go after "easy targets".


You want rational solutions to cut CO2 emissions. Lets try reducing the global human population which will then reduce both methane and CO2 emmissions from livestock and humans.


In my opinons, naturla soruces of Co2 outweigh human produced soruces to such a degree that they are nearly insignificant. We human like to think we cna control the planet, but in reality, we're still just along for the ride. The eco system is far, far more adapatable than we give it credit for.

Normal climate shift cannot be rules out as a cause for flucuating global temperatures. We simply have too little data over to small of a time peridod to prove otherwise. There are too many vairables in the equation that we cannot predict.

There's also far to much money involved on both sides of the argument to trust any of the conclusions that have been drawn.

I found Wiki's source for that, did a search on the site, and nothing came up for 410a.

This is from the EPA:

Sulfur Hexafluoride (SF6)

The global warming potential of SF6 is 23,900, making it the most potent greenhouse gas the IPCC has evaluated. SF6 is a colorless, odorless, nontoxic, nonflammable gas with excellent dielectric properties. SF6 is used for insulation and current interruption in electric power transmission and distribution equipment, in the magnesium industry to protext molten magnesium from oxidation and potentially violent burning, in semiconductor manufacturing to create circuitry patterns on silicon wafers, and as a tracer gas for leak detection.

Like the other high GWP gases, there are very few sinks for SF6, so all man-made sources contribute directly to its accumulation in the atmosphere. Measurements of SF6 show that its global average concentration has increased by about 7% per year during the 1980s and 1990s, from less 1 ppt in 1980 to almost 4 ppt in the late 1990’s (IPCC, 2001).

source:
http://epa.gov/highgwp/scientific.html


Electrical Transmission and Distribution. The primary user of SF6 is the electric power industry. Because of its inertness and dielectric (non-conductive) properties, SF6 is the industry's preferred gas for electrical insulation, current interruption, and arc quenching in the transmission and distribution of electricity. SF6 is used extensively in circuit breakers, gas-insulated substations, and switchgear. The U.S. inventory report provides detailed descriptions on SF6 emissions from electrical transmission and distribution and how they are estimated (see the Chapter entitled “Industrial Processes").

source:
http://epa.gov/highgwp/sources.html


Like I said, in respect to other sources, R410a overstated. It has a gwp of 1700 and change.