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Thread: Compatibility

  1. #1

    Compatibility

    Hi all . I am looking for a replacement for r410a I see a government building in Germany won awards for a propane/butane system (similar to LPG) I got one of the fridgie's to do a risk analysis on using this system and came up acceptable. (We have much more risk someone leaving the gas stove on)

    What it comes down to is compatibility I am told 410a uses a synthetic oil aswell as the different pressures. Because lpg runs at a lower pressure one would think there would be less stress on the system however will the compressor work at these lower pressures? Is the synthetic oil compatible with lpg. Has anyone had anything to do with these eco friendly airconditioners?
    Last edited by scottyb; 08-28-2011 at 09:20 AM. Reason: typo

  2. #2
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    Be careful of the large explosion...
    IMC requires all kinds of alarms and shutdowns on systems using propane (or any other flammable refrigerant). I would avoid it, not worth the risk. Why are you looking for an alternate to 410a anyways?
    It's not rocket-science...

    It's electromechanical thermodynamic engineering

  3. #3
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    Well at least a homeowner can smell a leak in their evaporator coil.

    In all seriousness. A malfunction or operator error of a gas cooking appliance is now the same as a potentially explosive situation in a refrigeration system where a equally performing alternative is available. (gas stove tops provide more BTU's and can change temp quicker than gas counterparts... ie they cook better).

    That's my opinion at least.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    Well at least a homeowner can smell a leak in their evaporator coil.

    In all seriousness. A malfunction or operator error of a gas cooking appliance is now the same as a potentially explosive situation in a refrigeration system where a equally performing alternative is available. (gas stove tops provide more BTU's and can change temp quicker than gas counterparts... ie they cook better).

    That's my opinion at least.
    Actually, the smell of propane is an added chemical. Pure propane is odorless.



    Now, R-290 (Propane) is a great refrigerant, as is R-717, but they both also have some serious drawbacks. With Ammonia, it's toxicity.


    Are you looking to install propane into a system designed for R410a? If so, I would STRONGLY suggest that you do NOT do this.

    If you insist, please be sure to call your insurance provider and update him on your plans before proceeding. I'd be willing to bet he will have something to say about it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Actually, the smell of propane is an added chemical. Pure propane is odorless.
    I actually did know that... I was just trying to be funny without being overly accurate.


    Could you imagine Ammonia being used in residential? Just a small leak would just about knock you down.


    You know, Hydrogen is a lot better for lifting airships than Helium.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    I actually did know that... I was just trying to be funny without being overly accurate.


    Could you imagine Ammonia being used in residential? Just a small leak would just about knock you down.


    You know, Hydrogen is a lot better for lifting airships than Helium.
    Well, some do not know that.

    In the interest of accuracy....

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottyb View Post
    Hi all . I am looking for a replacement for r410a I see a government building in Germany won awards for a propane/butane system (similar to LPG) I got one of the fridgie's to do a risk analysis on using this system and came up acceptable. (We have much more risk someone leaving the gas stove on)

    What it comes down to is compatibility I am told 410a uses a synthetic oil aswell as the different pressures. Because lpg runs at a lower pressure one would think there would be less stress on the system however will the compressor work at these lower pressures? Is the synthetic oil compatible with lpg. Has anyone had anything to do with these eco friendly airconditioners?
    no.

    and your going to:

    A. Have serious problems finding a residential unit that runs on such (residentially) unusual refrigerant.

    B. Have serious problems finding a contractor willing to install said unit.

    C. Have serious problems finding anyone willing to convert a 410 unit to propane.

    D. Add the risk of injury, to a semi-harmless refrigerant.

    E. Have issues keeping your insurrance.

    F. Have service issues.

    G. Be stuck with that contractor, since you won't find anyone else.

    H. Have issues selling the house down the road.

    I. Incure a non-needed additional cost.

    J. Have some issues if it kills a kid trying to the LP.

    K. If you covert from 410, warranty issues.

    Or:

    If your worried about the possible GWP, go geo.
    It might be cheaper.
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

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  8. #8
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    the pressure within the system does not cause stress on the system.

    compression ratios and systems are designed and enginerred to run as they do.

    lower pressure does not neccessarily mean less energy consumption. lower compression ratios mean less work to pump, but proper evaporation and heat exchange must be achieved for efficiency as well.

    using flammable gas as a refrigerant is extremely dangerous, and there are very good reasons why those types of systems are not utilized state side.
    If Guns Kill People, Do Pencils Misspell Words?

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  9. #9

    410A convertion

    Hi all thx for your replies and advice. The fridgey did his own research and found that there was no compatibility issues with synthetic oil used. For safety's sake a low pressure switch was wired into it as well that dropped power and set an alarm off.

    I actually checked the job out and was told that they had to put about 100 PSI of gas into it before it started working properly (I think they were only expecting to put half that in)

    With many government jobs you have to be greener then grass and we will be replacing all the air conditioners where it is permitted by law. (Australia has a set of stipulations where hydrocarbons can and cannot go)


    Oh BTW the airconditioner is more efficient now - it uses 3A less then it did before (almost 20%) With these figures the aircon will pay itself off in savings just after a few years. I am surprised they don't ban all these other gases that are harmful to the environment and run inefficient and force a changeover (BBQ gas is very cheap) the cost of a pressure switch and relay to gut the power is also negligible (cost $ for a solid state relay and pressure switch )

    Anyways alls well that ends well
    Last edited by beenthere; 08-31-2011 at 06:21 AM. Reason: price

  10. #10
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    I thought 410a was considered was a lot better for the environment than R22.... and R22 was better than R12.

  11. #11
    From what is known about r410a it doesn't harm the ozone layer but has high global warming impacts. Where lpg products have no global warming properties as well as no ozone harming qualities. Added to this the much improved efficiency of the AC makes the choice is easy. If you think global warming is all crap just do it for your back pocket.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottyb View Post
    Hi all thx for your replies and advice. The fridgey did his own research and found that there was no compatibility issues with synthetic oil used. For safety's sake a low pressure switch was wired into it as well that dropped power and set an alarm off.

    I actually checked the job out and was told that they had to put about 100 PSI of gas into it before it started working properly (I think they were only expecting to put half that in)

    With many government jobs you have to be greener then grass and we will be replacing all the air conditioners where it is permitted by law. (Australia has a set of stipulations where hydrocarbons can and cannot go)


    Oh BTW the airconditioner is more efficient now - it uses 3A less then it did before (almost 20%) With these figures the aircon will pay itself off in savings just after a few years. I am surprised they don't ban all these other gases that are harmful to the environment and run inefficient and force a changeover (BBQ gas is very cheap) the cost of a pressure switch and relay to gut the power is also negligible (cost $18.75 for a solid state relay and pressure switch )

    Anyways alls well that ends well
    100PSI is not a measurement of volume.

    No one is worried about mixing the oil. People are worried about compression ratios, and heat transfer.

    Most systems already have a low pressure switch.

    What conditions was the air conditioner ran before, and after?

    R410 does not have a high GWP. It has some, but your overstating it.
    Nor is R410 an "inefficient" refrigerant.

    What happens if this unit breaks down in 2 years?

    who is "the fridgey"?
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

    Dad adjusted

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTechNC View Post
    Be careful of the large explosion...
    IMC requires all kinds of alarms and shutdowns on systems using propane (or any other flammable refrigerant). I would avoid it, not worth the risk. Why are you looking for an alternate to 410a anyways?
    Be careful of the large explosion. It is not worth the risk. Early refrigeration systems used both propane and ammonia as refrigerants. They were not ideal for a variety of reasons, flammability and toxicity for these two examples, and that is what started the search for man-made refrigerants that were safer and more efficient. If ammonia and propane were safe, effective refrigerants than DuPont and Dow would not have sought out alternatives.
    It's not rocket-science...

    It's electromechanical thermodynamic engineering

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