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  1. #53
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    14,513
    Quote Originally Posted by pstu View Post
    Please do post a copy of your bill, when you are able to scan it. Maybe in its own thread. I used to work for an electric company and am hopeful I could make sense of it.

    In the meantime, you can identify the total KWH, or not?

    Best of luck -- Pstu

    My wife is the computer guru around here, I'll see if she can post it later when she gets home.
    PUB'S
    The Official sunblock of Ireland

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    las vegas
    Posts
    1,505
    we have dual fuel in our home but with the rates of
    gas vs elec. it is cheaper for us to heat with gas becuse of the longer run times with the heat pump in the vegas area..
    i am going to bullhead city next month to replace 3 condensers
    & put them on heat pumps because they have been on propane since
    the house was built & need to have the option of cheaper heat
    i think they can probably save 30/40 % with the pumps.

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque NM
    Posts
    2,485
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post

    Like I said, My customer in Mendon was paying $600+ per month for electric when he had a HP,with 20Kw aux heat strips I switched him to a 2 stg V/S LPG fired furnace and now his ENTIRE utility bill is less than $250.....

    $400/month is a substantial savings over a HP, I don't know how to explain it any plainer than that.

    again I wish I could figure out a way to scan my RG&E bill in here, If I figure it out I will. You'll be amazed at the BS thats on the bill
    So did you disable the heat mode on the HP or does he have dual fuel now?

    About the only place I'd want to run a HP with electric heat strips would be Florida or somewhere like that along the southern coast.

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    I wish I could tell you guys how much we pay per Kilowatt, but the fact of the matter is, NO ONE can figure out the damn invoice. (I wish I knew how to scan it in here)

    again I wish I could figure out a way to scan my RG&E bill in here, If I figure it out I will. You'll be amazed at the BS thats on the bill
    Cost and usage transparency is a huge problem. An impediment to people keeping track and understanding their energy consumption, which is the first step toward reducing waste. If you don't track, how do you know? And as Jmac points out, tracking is a royal pita, so very few do it.

    All in we pay roughly 11cents here. Electricity in upstate NY is very cheap. Crappy heat pumps will cost more to heat than even Propane, so if you buy (or sell) bottom of the barrel equipment, don't expect to save impressive amounts.

    That said, correlation does not prove causality.

    The correlation of a guy saving by switching to propane does not prove that propane is cheaper. Cost per BTU is the true test. Since the cost per btu of Propane is about the same as resistance electric the cost per BTU of propane against a good heat pump does not compare. Propane gets it's a$$ kicked. Your heat pump story sounds like an bad install, crappy equipment, or both, not fault of the heating strategy.

    Jmac, be careful if you are making financial recommendations without more than one anicdotal story behind it. You might want to do the numbers unless you aren't worried that a prospect performing a simple web search will hurt your credibility after you telling them Propane is cheaper. Here's a simple calculator for you.

    BTW. Propane is roughly 3 times the cost of Natural Gas. It's about equal to the cost of resistance electric.
    All I ever sell is heat pumps, never sold AC.
    Every customer I've sold a heat pump to has Natural Gas.
    Here are a pictures of some heatpumps I've sold around Rochester:


    Let's start with my Mother's in Penfield:











    ____

    54regcab - "Payback" is a very complex and house/homeowner specific question. In my opinion there is no payback for stepping beyond $100 window units. So if "payback" is your only criteria, window units are my recommendation.

    The discussion around heat pumps start to get obvious with a more sophisticated homeowner. It's tougher for someone looking for the cheapest ac they can find, something that they intend to use only when temps break 95. Someone who just wants cold because it's better than the hot they are used to.

    When we are talking about people who use their ac and now have developed a taste for quiet, low humidity, even comfort and want high efficiency. They want to set and forget, and have low bills. I'm talking about people that are sophisticated enough to understand they want nice, 2 stage equipment, usually not first timer's.

    If someone is at that level where 2 stage is a clear choice, AC is a really stupid decision. The incredible benefits added of going to a HEAT PUMP (lightly touched on in this thread) so significantly outweigh the incremental cost it is an easy sale.

    And at this level of investment heat pumps start getting really efficient. Not beating Oil or Propane efficient, beating Natural Gas efficient.

    They are already investing nearly double the cost of a crappy unit, so the tiny increment from AC to HP is crazy not to make. If it weren't an obvious decision, how is it that's all I've sold?

    But if you don't sell or understand why people buy the really great equipment, this perspective might be hard not to completely reject.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
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    2,909
    It's very difficult to rationalize spending twice as much on a outdoor unit when there are only 15-30 days which require cooling per year.

    Gas is incredibly cheap now and electricity is getting more expensive thanks to bad energy politics where I am.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    9
    .03 / kwh here in Denver.
    .33 for gas in 2010 and .54 in 2011...

    So, I'm more confused now more than ever.. but thanks for all the input. I'll have more info tomorrow.

  7. #59
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    14,513
    Quote Originally Posted by Elwha101 View Post
    .03 / kwh here in Denver.
    .33 for gas in 2010 and .54 in 2011...

    So, I'm more confused now more than ever.. but thanks for all the input. I'll have more info tomorrow.
    your electric is in Kilowatts, your gas bill is in Therms.....different things

    we pay about 72 per therm (or is it 82, I forgot)
    PUB'S
    The Official sunblock of Ireland

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elwha101 View Post
    .03 / kwh here in Denver.
    .33 for gas in 2010 and .54 in 2011...

    So, I'm more confused now more than ever.. but thanks for all the input. I'll have more info tomorrow.
    Wow - is your electricity subsidized or something down there? That's really cheap, even for coal.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    Again, jmac description about deciphering "bs on bill" applies again, gives my clients headaches. Here, all in it's around $1.10-1.15 per therm.

    Buying the gas doesn't heat the house if the gas you buy doesn't get delivered.

    People often get confused about what they pay, not realizing they have to get the energy they buy DELIVERED to the house, and that may be on another page or another bill. Very confusing and not transparent.

    The harder it is to track, the harder it is to get excited about reducing use. Think that might be on purpose?
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  10. #62
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
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    2,909
    I know what you mean.

    This is how Ontario's electricity prices are advertized - http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB...tricity+Prices

    Seems cheap, that is, until you tack on another 4-6 cents for transmission, distribution, line losses, tax, debt retirement charge, plus more.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Yuma, AZ
    Posts
    2,361
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    People often get confused about what they pay, not realizing they have to get the energy they buy DELIVERED to the house, and that may be on another page or another bill. Very confusing and not transparent.

    The harder it is to track, the harder it is to get excited about reducing use. Think that might be on purpose? No.
    The utilities were forced by state government regulators into breaking down their costs to make the market more competative.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    Mark Twain
    More at: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/education/

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,763
    If they were interested in transparency the could add a summary line. A subtotal if you will. Most people don't care to see all the detail, they want the total. They don't make these bills thinking "how can we help our customers track and manage consumption." The culture is NOT customer centric.

    Those interested in tracking use typically want TOTAL COST, TOTAL USE, TOTAL COST PER UNIT. This information would be easy to provide, just a summary line. Instead it goes straight from "here's what you owe" to a bunch of indecipherable fees.

    I have seen some bills that do provide good, user friendly detail and explanation bridging the gap between all the fees and the total, but most do not.
    Last edited by tedkidd; 09-01-2011 at 10:30 AM.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Why woudl they have a customer focus. The customer isn't going to buy someone else's gas, and they aren't going ot purchase less gas because of customer service. Their focus, you could argue rightfully so from a business standpoint, is focused on distribution, infrastructure and safety. Those are controllable costs, and directly impact revenues.

    That goes for most utilties.

    Actually I'm shocked most of them even have call centers located in the US anymore.

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