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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    9
    As for the furnace its this model ML193

    Thoughts?

  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,702
    If Lennox is your choice I'd look at this or this

    Not much anybody could do to convince me to get a single stage ANYTHING. And I'd never buy an AC if there was an option to have a HP.

    Get a high efficiency piece of equipment and run it 10-12 months of the year. If you own it don't you want it working and saving you money?
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Yuma, AZ
    Posts
    2,361
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    ... And I'd never buy an AC if there was an option to have a HP.
    Does that mean you don't have natural gas or like it for your climate? The heat pump is because we don't even need backup heat. Electric backup heat can be pricey in New York's climate.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    Mark Twain
    More at: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/education/

  4. #43
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    14,225
    Quote Originally Posted by lynn comstock View Post
    Does that mean you don't have natural gas or like it for your climate? The heat pump is because we don't even need backup heat. Electric backup heat can be pricey in New York's climate.
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    If Lennox is your choice I'd look at this or this

    Not much anybody could do to convince me to get a single stage ANYTHING. And I'd never buy an AC if there was an option to have a HP.

    Get a high efficiency piece of equipment and run it 10-12 months of the year. If you own it don't you want it working and saving you money?
    A HP around here will put you in the poor house, UNLESS your on Fairport Electric (The village of Fairport has there own utility company and they negotiate their own pricing, they average 3’/Kw) If your on Rochester Gas & Electric your screwed. RG&E charges anywhere from 9’/KW to 12’/Kw and it could be higher, but NO ONE can figure out the damn bill
    I Installed a York HP with a air handler with 20Kw of back up heat for a guy in Mendon, NY.(there is no NG and he did not want oil) I strongly warned him it would cost a lot of money and he should go with a LPG 90+ V/S instead. BUT he insisted on the HP, so thats what he got. It cost him over $600/month. After two years of B!Tching, I removed the air handler and installed a Trane 2stg V/S LPG furnace with the HP. His average bill is now $235/month.
    BEING AN ADULT

    is the dumbest thing I have ever done

  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,702
    Lynn, it's common for people to think of this as an either or situation. Either a furnace/AC or a heat pump. I'm not sure why people get stuck thinking this way, but it's very common.

    Then they get all worried about backup electric, which is a story for another day...

    We need to stop thinking either or. How do we unstick that train of thought? Might be a legacy thing, people stuck in the 1900's way of doing things when only top techs had the skills to install these things. And they did it so infrequently they represented a lot of headache potential.

    Don't close your eyes too long or technology will make you outdated. These things are now plug n play.

    A heat pump is air conditioning that works in both directions. Just because you have air conditioning does not mean you can't have a gas furnace, right? Question sounds absurd?

    Well why would the purchase of a heat pump exclude the purchase of a gas furnace? It's just an air conditioner that runs in 2 directions instead of 1. AC is a heat pump that only runs backwards. Why would you buy something that only runs in one direction if you could get the same thing that ran both ways?

    Heat pumps tend to knock the socks off gas furnaces above 20-25f for both comfort and operating cost. Much lower than that for propane. When that margin starts to drop you also run into challenges with comfort and keeping up with the load, which is also a load period when gas furnaces run MOST efficiently, so the marriage is really a perfect one.

    This type of setup is referred to as dual fuel or hybrid heat.

    Selling someone an appliance they only use for 2 months when for a small incremental investment they can have something that works great for 10 is a disservice in my opinion. I've never sold ac, only heat pumps, usually hybrids. I would recommend at least offering them, that way you don't get, "hey, my neighbor got one of these, why didn't you tell us we could have done this?"

    I like to avoid THAT egg on my face whenever possible.
    Last edited by tedkidd; 08-31-2011 at 07:37 AM.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,159
    Tedkidd what is typical payback time for going dual fuel vs. conventional A/C & Furnace? I'm looking it such a system when it comes time to replace mine. My current 1F95-1291 thermostat is multistage dual fuel compatible with outdoor sensor to determine switch point. It basically is the "brain" of the system, very little outside controls needed for dual fuel according to the owners manual. The beauty of dual fuel for our area is electricity over 600KWH is 1/2 price in the winter. With that type of pricing STRIP HEAT is almost competitive with natural gas !!!

    With all the service fees associated with natural gas (the bill is $26/mo before you turn on a pilot light) I've even considered going 100% electric. Time of use give 1/2 price electric in summer during off peak times, over 600KWH gives 1/2 price electric in winter.

  7. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Dual fuel is a nice option if it makes economic sense. Our electric rates are high here and gas is cheap... BUT, the electric utility will give a rebate that pays for nearly 1/2 the price increase of going to a ehat pump.

    Another factor is comfort. Having a couple lower stages of heat can give you longer runs times which will increase comfort and gas auxillary give you nice warm economical heat when it gets colder. With my utility prices, the economic balance point in terms of outdoor temperature is high enough that I'll never even go to defrost since I'll probably have it set around 40F.

    But you have to run the numbers. The economics vary widely in each area.

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
    Posts
    2,903
    Isn't the price premium for a heatpump 30-50% of the cost of a regular a/c?

    In many areas dual fuel doesn't make economic sense.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque NM
    Posts
    2,484
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    A HP around here will put you in the poor house, UNLESS your on Fairport Electric (The village of Fairport has there own utility company and they negotiate their own pricing, they average 3’/Kw) If your on Rochester Gas & Electric your screwed. RG&E charges anywhere from 9’/KW to 12’/Kw and it could be higher, but NO ONE can figure out the damn bill
    I Installed a York HP with a air handler with 20Kw of back up heat for a guy in Mendon, NY.(there is no NG and he did not want oil) I strongly warned him it would cost a lot of money and he should go with a LPG 90+ V/S instead. BUT he insisted on the HP, so thats what he got. It cost him over $600/month. After two years of B!Tching, I removed the air handler and installed a Trane 2stg V/S LPG furnace with the HP. His average bill is now $235/month.
    "A HP with electric heat strips for AUX around here will put you in the poor house"

    There, fixed that for ya.

  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Albuquerque NM
    Posts
    2,484
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    Dual fuel is a nice option if it makes economic sense. Our electric rates are high here and gas is cheap... BUT, the electric utility will give a rebate that pays for nearly 1/2 the price increase of going to a ehat pump.

    Another factor is comfort. Having a couple lower stages of heat can give you longer runs times which will increase comfort and gas auxillary give you nice warm economical heat when it gets colder. With my utility prices, the economic balance point in terms of outdoor temperature is high enough that I'll never even go to defrost since I'll probably have it set around 40F.

    But you have to run the numbers. The economics vary widely in each area.
    What he said. In most areas of the country, at 35-50F, you can heat cheaper with a heat pump than a big old gas furnace, and you can often get better comfort with the lower discharge air temperatures and longer run times giving better circulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by amd View Post
    Isn't the price premium for a heatpump 30-50% of the cost of a regular a/c?

    In many areas dual fuel doesn't make economic sense.
    Mine was nowhere near 30-50% more. Of course the contractor who doesn't know how to set up a dual-fuel system will tell you that.

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    Quote Originally Posted by garya505 View Post
    What he said. In most areas of the country, at 35-50F, you can heat cheaper with a heat pump than a big old gas furnace, and you can often get better comfort with the lower discharge air temperatures and longer run times giving better circulation.



    Mine was nowhere near 30-50% more. Of course the contractor who doesn't know how to set up a dual-fuel system will tell you that.
    For the equipment alone, the last one I saw were around 30-40%, but for the entire installation including coil and furnace or air handler, it's only around 10-15%.

  12. #51
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    14,225
    I wish I could tell you guys how much we pay per Kilowatt, but the fact of the matter is, NO ONE can figure out the damn invoice. (I wish I knew how to scan it in here)

    Our electric rates START at 9’/Kw. However if you start adding in a delivery charge, a surcharge for this, and a surcharge for that and "applicable taxes" we could EASILY be hitting 14-16’/Kw.

    My freaking lawyer doesn't understand RG&E's billing rates.

    The fact is, around here a HP is cost prohibitive. Not the cost of installation but the monthly cost to run. It's has nothing to do with climate or any of that crap. it's all about the price we pay for a kilowatt. Unless your on Fairport Electric. The Town of Fairport is the envy of all in Monroe county, because they only pay 3’/kw (In January, that jumps to 5’/kw)

    Like I said, My customer in Mendon was paying $600+ per month for electric when he had a HP,with 20Kw aux heat strips I switched him to a 2 stg V/S LPG fired furnace and now his ENTIRE utility bill is less than $250.....

    $400/month is a substantial savings over a HP, I don't know how to explain it any plainer than that.

    again I wish I could figure out a way to scan my RG&E bill in here, If I figure it out I will. You'll be amazed at the BS thats on the bill
    BEING AN ADULT

    is the dumbest thing I have ever done

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    I wish I could tell you guys how much we pay per Kilowatt, but the fact of the matter is, NO ONE can figure out the damn invoice. (I wish I knew how to scan it in here)

    Our electric rates START at 9’/Kw. However if you start adding in a delivery charge, a surcharge for this, and a surcharge for that and "applicable taxes" we could EASILY be hitting 14-16’/Kw.

    My freaking lawyer doesn't understand RG&E's billing rates.

    The fact is, around here a HP is cost prohibitive. Not the cost of installation but the monthly cost to run. It's has nothing to do with climate or any of that crap. it's all about the price we pay for a kilowatt. Unless your on Fairport Electric. The Town of Fairport is the envy of all in Monroe county, because they only pay 3’/kw (In January, that jumps to 5’/kw)

    Like I said, My customer in Mendon was paying $600+ per month for electric when he had a HP,with 20Kw aux heat strips I switched him to a 2 stg V/S LPG fired furnace and now his ENTIRE utility bill is less than $250.....

    $400/month is a substantial savings over a HP, I don't know how to explain it any plainer than that.

    again I wish I could figure out a way to scan my RG&E bill in here, If I figure it out I will. You'll be amazed at the BS thats on the bill
    Please do post a copy of your bill, when you are able to scan it. Maybe in its own thread. I used to work for an electric company and am hopeful I could make sense of it.

    In the meantime, you can identify the total KWH, or not?

    Best of luck -- Pstu

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