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  1. #27
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    Jun 2006
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    Richmond, VA
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktn77a View Post
    If pricing of HVAC systems was more transparent, the profession wouldn't be in this situation. There are just too many examples of homeowners getting ripped off that you can hardly blame them for getting multiple estimates. I wouldn't pay anyone $ to tell me how much they want to charge me for the privilege of getting my business!
    Transparency has nothing to do with this industry, you are buying a system to cool and heat your house and not just an "appliance".

    Here's an example:

    I did a full quote for a lady that wanted "variable speed, 16 SEER". Her current system is 9 years old (the house is 9 years old) and failing because it was originally installed by the absolute cheapest new construction contractor in the area. (their expertise is getting an outlet in every room but NEVER an outlet or trunkline to deliver the proper cfm's----they have a "warranty guy" that keeps coming out until the homeowner finally gives up )

    My bid included load calc, duct evaluation, duct remediation to get actual airflow to her master bedroom. Well she chose the "cheap" bid just replacing the equipment and not addressing the other issues (variable speed will solve her problems the cheap guy told her....NOT!!!!) So she's got a new system that will need to be replaced in another 9 years, maybe sooner with the high static pressure it will be forced to operate at. And I bet she will also be keeping the thick dark heavy curtains to keep her master bedroom cool

    The cheap guy will get praises and referrals from her for the next few years.

    So tell me....Did she get ripped off? I think so. She just bought equipment that will never perform to its potential or last a full service life. She is happy as a clam....she must have really liked the guy with the american flag bowtie
    Give a man a fish, he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime.

    Give a man a capacitor, doesn't know what to do. Teach a man to install it, now he knows everything.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    The depths of hell in PHX AZ
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    1,140
    Quote Originally Posted by beshvac View Post
    Transparency has nothing to do with this industry, you are buying a system to cool and heat your house and not just an "appliance".

    Here's an example:

    I did a full quote for a lady that wanted "variable speed, 16 SEER". Her current system is 9 years old (the house is 9 years old) and failing because it was originally installed by the absolute cheapest new construction contractor in the area. (their expertise is getting an outlet in every room but NEVER an outlet or trunkline to deliver the proper cfm's----they have a "warranty guy" that keeps coming out until the homeowner finally gives up )

    My bid included load calc, duct evaluation, duct remediation to get actual airflow to her master bedroom. Well she chose the "cheap" bid just replacing the equipment and not addressing the other issues (variable speed will solve her problems the cheap guy told her....NOT!!!!) So she's got a new system that will need to be replaced in another 9 years, maybe sooner with the high static pressure it will be forced to operate at. And I bet she will also be keeping the thick dark heavy curtains to keep her master bedroom cool

    The cheap guy will get praises and referrals from her for the next few years.

    So tell me....Did she get ripped off? I think so. She just bought equipment that will never perform to its potential or last a full service life. She is happy as a clam....she must have really liked the guy with the american flag bowtie
    amen
    I will believe that the government is broke when the welfare checks start bouncing!!

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
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    67,717
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy-lvhm View Post
    And how does that discussion affect anything? It's not a price discussion on equipment. I think your being a little over the top big guy.

    Snore.
    Cause it discusses the price of a load calc. Which makes this thread a pricing thread which isn't allowed. So ,leave prices out, so the OP's thread doesn't get closed.


    You can discuss your business/pricing practices in the pro tech, or pro business forums.
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  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2004
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    11,962
    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy-lvhm View Post
    That's a pretty far stretch been. But then again you usually do. Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy. Flex away. You're never wrong.

    Didn't see you busting the publicly busting the ops chops which was plastered with pricing.

    I'll stand behind my Moderator. Years of practical experience on this site will give him the benefit of the doubt. Please follow his instructions and discuss all pricing in the pro areas.

    Thank you.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    Seems like Estimate, Quote, Bid, Design, Specification, all get mixed together in a blender. Ho wants price for this, price for that, price for the other because they have no clue how to differentiate besides price.

    Homeowners kicking 7 sales peoples tires is really not a sign that of consideration for the time of others. Asking price before figuring out what you want seems a little backwards to me. Unfortunately, an impediment is ho don't know an effective way to build a specification, so they get prices on apples, oranges, kiwi's, then just pull from a hat. Its a really broken approach. No wonder so many report disastrous experiences.

    Really what is needed is for homeowners to somehow get it that building a design, understanding what is going on with the house, and deciding on how to approach it, is the first step. from design comes a specification that can then be taken to bid.

    Building a quote to a specification makes the sales guys job less frustrating, homeowners experience before, during, and after much more satisfying and successful.

    Really, the place to start is with an energy audit.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Malden Mass
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    261
    EDIT by Admin

  7. #33
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    May 2004
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  8. #34
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    4,699
    [QUOTE=lynn comstock;11074022]
    Quote Originally Posted by wannaB-efficientDC View Post

    The top efficiency units manufactured are Bragging Systems. They represent less than 1% of all sales but the developement costs for the bragging systems are more than the cost to develope the minimum Seer equipment. Because of low sales volume, it also costs more to manufacture and to inventory them so they are available in the market. Yes, 50% is a fair premium over the 16 Seer systems because it is also more efficient and has other premium features.
    That's a nice simple way of explaining it. "This is our space shuttle. It's a fun ride, but not many travel this way so it's expensive."

    I think this guy should jump right past the 19 and go 2 ton Greenspeed. Probably won't require tearing out all his duct work.

    OP, if you go up in size and your duct won't support flow, expect to get 10 seer out of your 19 seer system. The ratings aren't a guarantee of efficiency, they're what you might attain if everything else is perfect.

    And if you don't specify duct diagnostics and engineering, guess what, you ain't getting it. Hvac guys just can't afford to provide services the competition does not provide, do it on each job, and be competitive enough to stay solvent.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Southeastern Pa
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    Consumers dictate how the market operates.

    Every "free" estimate has a real cost associated with it. Some of the op's questions were a red flag to the contractors involved. The time required could end up costing more than the profit generated by his sale, because the precise, methodical approach would pull time away from other clients who are ready to BUY.

    Referring back to my original assertion, folks reject a pre-season maintenance because of COST, so when the systems go down, the contractor must concentrate on clients they can serve, rather than clients who behave like engineers. In the "heat of the action," few shops can schedule a consortium while five other clients have no ac, because they thought it costs too much for the pre-season service.

    My dad is an engineer, so I have a little experience with the desires for extended discussions.
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  10. #36
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    Nov 2006
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    Southeastern Pa
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    Quote Originally Posted by timebuilder View Post
    Consumers dictate how the market operates.

    Every "free" estimate has a real cost associated with it. Some of the op's questions were a red flag to the contractors involved. The time required could end up costing more than the profit generated by his sale, because the precise, methodical approach would pull time away from other clients who are ready to BUY.
    For those of you who don't know me, let me explain that this is "tongue in cheek." Many of us are always "precise and methodical," but cannot take all the time that some clients require, because experience has proved that the amount of time to be taken far exceeds the ability to make any money trying to satisfy the most particular type of client.
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

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  11. #37
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    May 2004
    Location
    Malden Mass
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dad View Post
    If you don't have anything professionally constructive to say then don't say it.
    Dad, it's an actual book.
    It's currently #7 on the New York Times Best Bookseller list.

  12. #38
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  13. #39
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    Nov 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdere View Post
    Dad, it's an actual book.
    It's currently #7 on the New York Times Best Bookseller list.
    Do you mean the Tina Fey book?
    [Avatar photo from a Florida training accident. Everyone walked away.]
    2 Tim 3:16-17

    RSES CMS, HVAC Electrical Specialist

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