Frustrated with Contractor bids

[catmanacman]

on a 2 ton system the energy savings on a 19 seer over a 16 seer is very little ,on 2 ton units it is very easy to get 16 seer in single stage units the 19 seer will be 2 stage .i would want a 2 stage system

[jeremy-lvhm]

This is why I won't do free estimates anymore.

What most homeowners don't get is that there is alot of time involved for a GOOD contractor to do a bid. And most homeowners are not going to spend the extra money on a two stage system. As you have already proven by your gripe on price increase. Guess what. That increase is justified. The units DO NOT come cheap. Go price a variable 25 seer somewhere. It will blow the top of your head off. The fact is after 16 it is no longer a conventional unit. The technology changes along with the price. You won't get your ROI back most likely anyway. And if you run the numbers and find that you can get a good ROI then it's a no brainer

Homeowners need to realize that getting estimates for free is a pretty good deal and if you aren't happy with what your getting then perhaps you should pay for what you want. I now charge $per quote. It weeds out price shoppers and allows me to give the customer exactly what they need. Then if they take the job that money comes off the top.

[sktn77a]

This is why I won't do free estimates anymore. I now charge $ per quote. It weeds out price shoppers and allows me to give the customer exactly what they need. Then if they take the job that money comes off the top.

If pricing of HVAC systems was more transparent, the profession wouldn't be in this situation. There are just too many examples of homeowners getting ripped off that you can hardly blame them for getting multiple estimates. I wouldn't pay anyone $ to tell me how much they want to charge me for the privilege of getting my business!

[jeremy-lvhm]

If pricing of HVAC systems was more transparent, the profession wouldn't be in this situation. There are just too many examples of homeowners getting ripped off that you can hardly blame them for getting multiple estimates. I wouldn't pay anyone $ to tell me how much they want to charge me for the privilege of getting my business!

In the days of the internet it is more transparent then ever. Anyone can look up prices on equipment and get an idea of what stuff costs. The fact is too many customers look at price only without looking at the other factors of what a contractor will do. All of my installs are above and beyond most of the swap out contractors in my area. I put time into my quotes doing it properly with load calcs, planning, etc. Plus I usually give two to three options of units. To do all this work just to hear "jo bob hvac is $1000 less" just gets old. Then you try to explain the extra work involved, better quality system, overall install, etc. "but why is it $1000 less?"

A free quote will not prevent a homeowner from being ripped off. As a matter off act it usually helps the process. I am providing a service when I go make system recommendations and analysis. I give free quotes on the phone. If they want a true analysis of their house and a professional recommendation to what their options are I charge a meager fee to cover my time.

Yes alot of different contractors give free estimates, quotes, etc. But not many trades have such a varied end result that ours. At the end of the day one install is never the same as another. There are too many factors that go into things that people just don't consider.

[beenthere]

Keep prices out of the thread, so it can remain open.

[jeremy-lvhm]

Keep prices out of the thread, so it can remain open.

And how does that discussion affect anything? It's not a price discussion on equipment. I think your being a little over the top big guy.

Snore.

[beshvac]

If pricing of HVAC systems was more transparent, the profession wouldn't be in this situation. There are just too many examples of homeowners getting ripped off that you can hardly blame them for getting multiple estimates. I wouldn't pay anyone $ to tell me how much they want to charge me for the privilege of getting my business!

Transparency has nothing to do with this industry, you are buying a system to cool and heat your house and not just an "appliance".

Here's an example:

I did a full quote for a lady that wanted "variable speed, 16 SEER". Her current system is 9 years old (the house is 9 years old) and failing because it was originally installed by the absolute cheapest new construction contractor in the area. (their expertise is getting an outlet in every room but NEVER an outlet or trunkline to deliver the proper cfm's----they have a "warranty guy" that keeps coming out until the homeowner finally gives up )

My bid included load calc, duct evaluation, duct remediation to get actual airflow to her master bedroom. Well she chose the "cheap" bid just replacing the equipment and not addressing the other issues (variable speed will solve her problems the cheap guy told her....NOT!!!!) So she's got a new system that will need to be replaced in another 9 years, maybe sooner with the high static pressure it will be forced to operate at. And I bet she will also be keeping the thick dark heavy curtains to keep her master bedroom cool

The cheap guy will get praises and referrals from her for the next few years.

So tell me....Did she get ripped off? I think so. She just bought equipment that will never perform to its potential or last a full service life. She is happy as a clam....she must have really liked the guy with the american flag bowtie

[jeremy-lvhm]

Transparency has nothing to do with this industry, you are buying a system to cool and heat your house and not just an "appliance".

Here's an example:

I did a full quote for a lady that wanted "variable speed, 16 SEER". Her current system is 9 years old (the house is 9 years old) and failing because it was originally installed by the absolute cheapest new construction contractor in the area. (their expertise is getting an outlet in every room but NEVER an outlet or trunkline to deliver the proper cfm's----they have a "warranty guy" that keeps coming out until the homeowner finally gives up )

My bid included load calc, duct evaluation, duct remediation to get actual airflow to her master bedroom. Well she chose the "cheap" bid just replacing the equipment and not addressing the other issues (variable speed will solve her problems the cheap guy told her....NOT!!!!) So she's got a new system that will need to be replaced in another 9 years, maybe sooner with the high static pressure it will be forced to operate at. And I bet she will also be keeping the thick dark heavy curtains to keep her master bedroom cool

The cheap guy will get praises and referrals from her for the next few years.

So tell me....Did she get ripped off? I think so. She just bought equipment that will never perform to its potential or last a full service life. She is happy as a clam....she must have really liked the guy with the american flag bowtie

amen

[beenthere]

And how does that discussion affect anything? It's not a price discussion on equipment. I think your being a little over the top big guy.

Snore.

Cause it discusses the price of a load calc. Which makes this thread a pricing thread which isn't allowed. So ,leave prices out, so the OP's thread doesn't get closed.


You can discuss your business/pricing practices in the pro tech, or pro business forums.

[Dad]

That's a pretty far stretch been. But then again you usually do. Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy. Flex away. You're never wrong.

Didn't see you busting the publicly busting the ops chops which was plastered with pricing.

I'll stand behind my Moderator. Years of practical experience on this site will give him the benefit of the doubt. Please follow his instructions and discuss all pricing in the pro areas.

Thank you.

[tedkidd]

Seems like Estimate, Quote, Bid, Design, Specification, all get mixed together in a blender. Ho wants price for this, price for that, price for the other because they have no clue how to differentiate besides price.

Homeowners kicking 7 sales peoples tires is really not a sign that of consideration for the time of others. Asking price before figuring out what you want seems a little backwards to me. Unfortunately, an impediment is ho don't know an effective way to build a specification, so they get prices on apples, oranges, kiwi's, then just pull from a hat. Its a really broken approach. No wonder so many report disastrous experiences.

Really what is needed is for homeowners to somehow get it that building a design, understanding what is going on with the house, and deciding on how to approach it, is the first step. from design comes a specification that can then be taken to bid.

Building a quote to a specification makes the sales guys job less frustrating, homeowners experience before, during, and after much more satisfying and successful.

Really, the place to start is with an energy audit.

[jdere]

EDIT by Admin

[Dad]

If you don't have anything professionally constructive to say then don't say it.

[tedkidd]

[QUOTE=lynn comstock;11074022]

The top efficiency units manufactured are Bragging Systems. They represent less than 1% of all sales but the developement costs for the bragging systems are more than the cost to develope the minimum Seer equipment. Because of low sales volume, it also costs more to manufacture and to inventory them so they are available in the market. Yes, 50% is a fair premium over the 16 Seer systems because it is also more efficient and has other premium features.

That's a nice simple way of explaining it. "This is our space shuttle. It's a fun ride, but not many travel this way so it's expensive."

I think this guy should jump right past the 19 and go 2 ton Greenspeed. Probably won't require tearing out all his duct work.

OP, if you go up in size and your duct won't support flow, expect to get 10 seer out of your 19 seer system. The ratings aren't a guarantee of efficiency, they're what you might attain if everything else is perfect.

And if you don't specify duct diagnostics and engineering, guess what, you ain't getting it. Hvac guys just can't afford to provide services the competition does not provide, do it on each job, and be competitive enough to stay solvent.

[timebuilder]

Consumers dictate how the market operates.

Every "free" estimate has a real cost associated with it. Some of the op's questions were a red flag to the contractors involved. The time required could end up costing more than the profit generated by his sale, because the precise, methodical approach would pull time away from other clients who are ready to BUY.

Referring back to my original assertion, folks reject a pre-season maintenance because of COST, so when the systems go down, the contractor must concentrate on clients they can serve, rather than clients who behave like engineers. In the "heat of the action," few shops can schedule a consortium while five other clients have no ac, because they thought it costs too much for the pre-season service.

My dad is an engineer, so I have a little experience with the desires for extended discussions.

[timebuilder]

Consumers dictate how the market operates.

Every "free" estimate has a real cost associated with it. Some of the op's questions were a red flag to the contractors involved. The time required could end up costing more than the profit generated by his sale, because the precise, methodical approach would pull time away from other clients who are ready to BUY.

For those of you who don't know me, let me explain that this is "tongue in cheek." Many of us are always "precise and methodical," but cannot take all the time that some clients require, because experience has proved that the amount of time to be taken far exceeds the ability to make any money trying to satisfy the most particular type of client.

[jdere]

If you don't have anything professionally constructive to say then don't say it.

Dad, it's an actual book.
It's currently #7 on the New York Times Best Bookseller list.

[Dad]

Then post the book credits when you quote a line.

[timebuilder]

Dad, it's an actual book.
It's currently #7 on the New York Times Best Bookseller list.

Do you mean the Tina Fey book?

[adamwhatley]

I can relate to your story, I probably have more time into getting and straightening out bids than the contractor will spend putting the equipment in. I really don't think that I'm being picky at all. When they put something in the bid, or leave it out, I want to get it clarified. I don't ask for it in writing unless I'm ready to sign. Three of the Four bids I've received included 4 different "scenarios", all included upgrades that I wasn't interested in, i.e. steam humidifiers, electronic air filters, etc... I have never questioned their prices, it just seems like they have no interest in making money.

While I see where you are coming from with being a homeowner and having things added that you don't want or think you want! From a salesman format, I go into every home with a clear head meaning I am going in to talk to the customer and find out what they are trying to get out of a new system and what problems they have with there current system in which have been problems for a long time for them weather it be comfort, high electric bills, etc...

I look at it this way, I am there to help a customer make a decision not make it for them. There are many people who don't have a clue what they want or the advantages to having a better system installed then a basic one. I to have spent alot of time bidding jobs where the Person wants 3-5 options and then go with the cheapest price. Know I have spent that time preparing those estimates working up the way they ask only to loss the job. Time not well spent. So years ago I started doing flat rate costing which helped out alot. When I am at your home you will get all the prices from me that day, I want go back a figure the price then call you unless not a average job.

Customers have responded very well to this as they see where I am getting my prices from and realize (most) that if he installs let's say a (3) ton system in my home then does my friends house with the same system cost will be the same. Customers are not loyal anymore and I don't blame them in some cases. I guess my point in this long thread would be this as a homeowner we understand you want a few options and we want to provide you with those but make sure the next guy is going to do the same thing. Apples to apples not apples to oranges. It is that simply!