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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    195

    The man's name is Hank Rutkowski

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    And what was the name of the "man" that invented manual J?

    40%, would mean that a home that comes out to needing a 3 ton, it would be ok to use a 4 ton. Sounds more like that instructor just gave a twist to his own personal beliefs. To make it more believable.


    I am sure I am butchering his last name, Apologies.

    When I was young, this was the guy credited with writing the original Manual J. As Far as I know that is true.

    He was the guy.

    I went to a few classes he taught. I found them to be quite an education. I also found that this guy could turn a one word answer into a short story better than anyone I had ever met.

    ACCA now has a sizable stable of Tip Top Certified Trainers. Many of whom will give you quite a bit of insight into some of these topics. Particularly the approaches to dealing with unknown variables. Their opinions will surprise you.

    I wonder if Hank merits a statue?

    ACBD

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,112
    I know his name, wanted to see if mm did.

    He wrote it, didn't 100% invent it.
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    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    568

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bad Dog View Post
    I am sure I am butchering his last name, Apologies.

    When I was young, this was the guy credited with writing the original Manual J. As Far as I know that is true.

    He was the guy.

    I went to a few classes he taught. I found them to be quite an education. I also found that this guy could turn a one word answer into a short story better than anyone I had ever met.

    ACCA now has a sizable stable of Tip Top Certified Trainers. Many of whom will give you quite a bit of insight into some of these topics. Particularly the approaches to dealing with unknown variables. Their opinions will surprise you.

    I wonder if Hank merits a statue?

    ACBD
    hey bad dog, i didn't say if it's a 3 ton to go up to 4 tons was o.k. what i said was if the unit is a 3 ton, going up a 1/2 ton to a 3 1/2 ton , isn't the end of the world. a lot of guys when loading out a house chuck in the 3 ton then on the super hot day, after customer calls says i'd wish i bumped it up the extra 1/2! 36,000btu divided by 6,000 btu=1/6 or 17% . some of the areas aroung the country with shorter seasons when it hits the 98 degree level,people want to be able to bring delta down 25 degrees. now going from a 3 ton to 4 ton is heavy for me! that's 33% not good!

  4. #56
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    568

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    I know his name, wanted to see if mm did.

    He wrote it, didn't 100% invent it.
    been there that class was 9 years ago, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, being your out there in PA. have you ever dealt with PPMCSA?

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    68,112
    Quote Originally Posted by MM#7 View Post
    been there that class was 9 years ago, a lot of water has gone under the bridge, being your out there in PA. have you ever dealt with PPMCSA?

    No I haven't.

    I did go to PPA classes though.
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  6. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
    Posts
    2,903
    If I go to a 60K/95% furnace, I'll lose 7K BTU in peak output
    Did you know that a space heater puts out 5k? It's not very much heat.

    So if you're concerned about 7k, keep a couple of space heaters on hand* just in case (for the two or three nights per year when the outdoor temp drops to design), and enjoy the comfort of a smaller unit the rest of the year.

    *You most likely won't need them.

    Re: Load calcs, they can be accurate if...

    - A blower door test is done and the cfm value at 50 pascals (I think) is plugged into the software
    - Insulation is actually checked (open attic hatch, check basement, take covers off of outlets/switches, take a couple of other samples)
    - The correct dimensions are used
    - The correct window type of entered into the software.

    Garbage in = garbage out.

    I would take someone who does an accurate load calc over an "experienced" (someone who has decades of experience doing it wrong - grossly oversizing furnaces, not comissioning equipment, using single stage t-stats on 2-stage equipment, charging a/c units based on pressures alone) contractor; the contractor doesn't stick around to see how the equipment performs at design conditions. If a 2-stage unit shuts off at design, it's grossly oversized.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    I don't know
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    2,903
    some of the areas aroung the country with shorter seasons when it hits the 98 degree level,people want to be able to bring delta down 25 degrees.
    People need to stop looking for a specific delta-t as long as the moisture is removed and it's comfortable.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    We Agree, 3% of OLD HOUSE CALCS have some merit.

    Quote Originally Posted by amd View Post
    Did you know that a space heater puts out 5k? It's not very much heat.

    So if you're concerned about 7k, keep a couple of space heaters on hand* just in case (for the two or three nights per year when the outdoor temp drops to design), and enjoy the comfort of a smaller unit the rest of the year.

    *You most likely won't need them.

    Re: Load calcs, they can be accurate if...

    - A blower door test is done and the cfm value at 50 pascals (I think) is plugged into the software
    - Insulation is actually checked (open attic hatch, check basement, take covers off of outlets/switches, take a couple of other samples)
    - The correct dimensions are used
    - The correct window type of entered into the software.

    Garbage in = garbage out.

    I would take someone who does an accurate load calc over an "experienced" (someone who has decades of experience doing it wrong - grossly oversizing furnaces, not comissioning equipment, using single stage t-stats on 2-stage equipment, charging a/c units based on pressures alone) contractor; the contractor doesn't stick around to see how the equipment performs at design conditions. If a 2-stage unit shuts off at design, it's grossly oversized.


    Hey AMD,

    We Absolutely Agree.

    I agree a load calc becomes more accurate if you do all the things you state.I would add a duct test to the list as this is an area where you can go from 7% losses to up near 40%. Obviously If you don't know this number you are putting Garbage IN...

    OK, So we Agree, if you do all these things your Load Calc has some merit,
    If you don't, you are dealing in Garbage. Or IMHO just doing an act for the customer.

    Now a question for you?

    What percentage of the guys preaching load calcs have the equipment to do the above tests and spend the time doing the full survey? My bet, less than 3%,if that.

    So, by your reasoning, and I am willing to agree with you, 97% of load calcs on old houses are Garbage.

    Gimmie a Top Shelf experienced Company over a Garbage in, Garbage Out load Calc every time.

    Thank you for helping with this,


    ACBD

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    71
    Hey that's what I said (regarding load calcs). :-)


  10. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by amd View Post
    Did you know that a space heater puts out 5k? It's not very much heat.

    So if you're concerned about 7k, keep a couple of space heaters on hand* just in case (for the two or three nights per year when the outdoor temp drops to design), and enjoy the comfort of a smaller unit the rest of the year.
    Actually, just realized I currently have a 90K/80% furnace (see msg above). So going to a 60K/95% would end up with a capacity loss of 15k. Probably would not change your opinion but I just wanted to give you the correct info.

    Given that I'll be getting a 3-stage system, I think I'll be very happy with the comfort level provided by an 80K either way.

  11. #63
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    I don't know
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    2,903
    Current unit most likely oversized, 80k probably still oversized but being a 3-stage, you'll still get long cycles if the correct t-stat is used.

    What percentage of the guys preaching load calcs have the equipment to do the above tests and spend the time doing the full survey? My bet, less than 3%,if that.
    The problem is that a furnace replacement is viewed to be no different from an appliance replacement.

    Prior to making changes to an hvac system, an energy audit with a blower door test (audits uncover problems which the homeowner wasn't aware of - I'm sure that most people only think of replacing windows and buying a new furnace when it comes to cutting energy costs) should always be performed by someone independent. In Canada it's done frequently now as part of a retrofit grant program.

    Even if a blower door test isn't performed, anyone who is capable of using a screwdriver and measuring tape can do a decent load calc - it's not hard at all to check insulation levels and measure.

    I don't believe that a load calc is always necessary, but if the contractor is unsure of which size to go for or a house has been rennovated, there's no excuse not to do one.
    General public's attitude towards our energy predicament: "I reject the reality of finite resource depletion and substitute it with my own; energy is infinite, we just need an alternative storage medium to run the cars on. The economy can grow indefinitely - we just need to "green" everything! Technology is energy! Peak what?"

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,916
    I agree, I do one on every job and I do it accurate.

    I do make educated guesses on duct leakage and infiltration inputs. I never guess at the whole thing

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by amd View Post
    you'll still get long cycles if the correct t-stat is used.
    What do you recommend?

    BTW, I don't have an Evolution air conditioner and I'm fine with going downstairs to adjust my humidity.

    beshvac- Love your profile picture. What a cutie she is!

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