Question about Furnace Selection

[MM#7]

OK,

So, Lets say home owner makes 400k/yr. Lets say HVAC guy makes less.

When should HVAC guy start making economic and comfort decisions for the homeowner?

Should he survey homeowner as to their financial status before quoting systems? Lets have a look at your ductwork and your Stock Portfolio before we quote this job.

Thinking the customer has no money is a great way to make less yourself.
Keep talking them out of the good stuff, and you just end up quoting price on commodities.

How about we just let the customer choose? Our job is to create choices not make choices. We do not know what is important, or two expensive.

Perfect,

ACBD

hey acbd, i'm not talking anyone out of anything! usually the higher end customer has more$ and is a little more demanding as far as creature comforts are concerned, ie 2 stage compressors,space guard air cleaners,variable speed motors and such, but i would highly encourage some one who has a system installed to get the 10 year parts and labor contract, through the mfg. if possible to ease any costs regarding break downs, along with the required seasonal maintence! i'm not against the newer products on the market. again i'm not against the newer products on the market, there are alot of people who like/demand them, but there are people who just need or want a basic system. and to me the minimum basic furnace is a 95% with a 2 stage gas valve,and at least a energy efficient motor, along with a space guard 2200 air cleaner, or if it's a a/c system at least 13 seer,with a energy efficien motor, along witha space guard air cleaner, and you can always go up from there.

[AC Bad Dog]

hey acbd, i'm not talking anyone out of anything! usually the higher end customer has more$ and is a little more demanding as far as creature comforts are concerned, ie 2 stage compressors,space guard air cleaners,variable speed motors and such, but i would highly encourage some one who has a system installed to get the 10 year parts and labor contract, through the mfg. if possible to ease any costs regarding break downs, along with the required seasonal maintence! i'm not against the newer products on the market. again i'm not against the newer products on the market, there are alot of people who like/demand them, but there are people who just need or want a basic system. and to me the minimum basic furnace is a 95% with a 2 stage gas valve,and at least a energy efficient motor, along with a space guard 2200 air cleaner, or if it's a a/c system at least 13 seer,with a energy efficien motor, along witha space guard air cleaner, and you can always go up from there.

Yo, MM#7

We agree. Our job is to just create the choices, look the customer in the eye when we give them straight answers to their questions, No BS, no tricks, then get out of the way. The customer will get to the choice that is best for them.

Some think that because they would never choose something, no one should. In this Biz, that attitude costs contractors a lot of money every day.

Our industry is hurting.

All of the major manufacturer players are watching as sales not only fall, but watching the mix of products fall back to 13 SEER and 80% efficient heaters. We spoke of Dry Ship units going to over 600,000 this year.

Remember, in HVAC you don't have to be great, you just have to suck less than the other guy.

Remember, I said to put that on your truck.

"WE SUCK LESS!"

ACBD

[MM#7]

Yo, MM#7

We agree. Our job is to just create the choices, look the customer in the eye when we give them straight answers to their questions, No BS, no tricks, then get out of the way. The customer will get to the choice that is best for them.

Some think that because they would never choose something, no one should. In this Biz, that attitude costs contractors a lot of money every day.

Our industry is hurting.

All of the major manufacturer players are watching as sales not only fall, but watching the mix of products fall back to 13 SEER and 80% efficient heaters. We spoke of Dry Ship units going to over 600,000 this year.

Remember, in HVAC you don't have to be great, you just have to suck less than the other guy.

Remember, I said to put that on your truck.

"WE SUCK LESS!"

ACBD

hey acbd, it's the economy! there's a reason goodman is selling! any way i don't know if that quote is for me, but i said 3 times before bed last night!

[AC Bad Dog]

hey acbd, it's the economy! there's a reason goodman is selling! any way i don't know if that quote is for me, but i said 3 times before bed last night!

Hey, I can here the chant gaining strength across the USA of HVAC.

Three times?

WE SUCK LESS!, WE SUCK LESS!, WE SUCK LESS!

[MM#7]

Hey, I can here the chant gaining strength across the USA of HVAC.

Three times?

WE SUCK LESS!, WE SUCK LESS!, WE SUCK LESS!

hey ac, trust me, that quote won't catch on, good luck!

[beenthere]

Did you guys come over and do a precise load calculation over-night for me to be able to say with such certainty that the proposed system is oversize? Truth is you have no idea because you haven't done a load calculation, either. Or is your intuition that good that you don't need a load calc? Doesn't sound any different than 99% of the contractors out there.

I'll bet 90% of the guys on this forum don't always practice what they preach and that 75% of the calcs. that actually are done are probably wrong anyway.

Real world experience with a home almost identical to mine will be better than any load calc. unless the calc is performed by someone who really knows how to do it and is familiar with my surroundings and weather. We'll see what my other contractors say though.

You have your mind made up. And don't want to hear anything that opposes your opinion. Or you would do a load calc yourself, if you can't get a contractor to do one for you.

Your neighbor, or friends house is not yours, and can not be used to judge what size your house needs.

You don't have to heed our advise. And living with an over sized furnace is your choice. And if you don't have a load calc done to find out what size is really needed. You can sleep soundly knowing you are right by remaining in ignorance. 1,000 do it.

[beenthere]

hey global do you belive in MANUEL J CALCULATIONS, YES OR NO?

I believe in manual J load calcs.


Also, for the record. When you want to talk to me as a Pro member, use my screen name. If you want to talk to me as a mod. make it a forum question.

[MM#7]

I believe in manual J load calcs.


Also, for the record. When you want to talk to me as a Pro member, use my screen name. If you want to talk to me as a mod. make it a forum question.

reason i asked was about 9 years ago i was at a seminar, and i was talking to the instructor, and was telling him about a house that was a 3-3 1/2 tons. i asked him what's the big deal in going with that extra 1/2 ton! this is what he told me! he said he actually talked to the guy who invented the MANUEL J! and had asked him that very question, the guy who invented the manuel j said this, it becomes a problem when over sized by 40% or more! now i'm not telling anyone to over size a unit by 40%, but like the man said, i choose to give the customer that extra 1/2 ton, to take the edge off on the super hot days in the north east!

[beenthere]

reason i asked was about 9 years ago i was at a seminar, and i was talking to the instructor, and was telling him about a house that was a 3-3 1/2 tons. i asked him what's the big deal in going with that extra 1/2 ton! this is what he told me! he said he actually talked to the guy who invented the MANUEL J! and had asked him that very question, the guy who invented the manuel j said this, it becomes a problem when over sized by 40% or more! now i'm not telling anyone to over size a unit by 40%, but like the man said, i choose to give the customer that extra 1/2 ton, to take the edge off on the super hot days in the north east!

And what was the name of the "man" that invented manual J?

40%, would mean that a home that comes out to needing a 3 ton, it would be ok to use a 4 ton. Sounds more like that instructor just gave a twist to his own personal beliefs. To make it more believable.

[Clocker]

Just an update:

2nd furnace guy was here. They are Michigan's largest factory authorized Bryant dealer.

First thing...I discovered I was mistaken about my current furnace size. It's a 90K/80% furnace. Brain fart on my part as I looked at the label before, even took a picture. Since it said 88K on their I must have gotten 80K on the brain. So I am looking at going from a 90K/80% to a 80K/95% (i.e. 72K BTU to 76K BTU). At least that's less chance I am going to be oversized. Sorry for misleading you guys!

I asked him about how many houses tend to have oversize systems. His line was that was mostly true of older homes. Since my house was built in the mid 90's he said they were better at building houses with the correct size to start with and that load calculations were required when the house was built here back then. Like most, I think he just can't justify doing a ManualJ but maybe some part of his statement is true.

I think he offered me a good deal. Basically, for about $200 more than the the first guy I am getting into an 355CAV Evolution Series rather than the 355BAV Preferred Plus. Plus he's also doing a whole house duct cleaning which he said will take about 2/3 of a day. I was never a person who thought too much of duct cleaning, and I still don't, but I guess it's worth something. They have one year same as ca$h which is nice too.

I was also really impressed with his professionalism, the amount of information about his company he gave me, how he stressed his installers are constantly in training and that, on average, have ~20+ years with the company. They also do their own electrical and have certified electricians hook everything up (lots of places don't he said). He said the install would take a full day from the time they start until they have it all tuned up with the burners etc. set properly. 10 year labor warranty is not optional with the job, they include it on every job they do.

They've been in business for 62 years so I guess they must be doing something right.

What really differentiates the 355CAV from the 355BAV with respect to the heating operation? He mentioned it has more precise control over house temp. IIRC, I think he said it had more stages but I was being distracted by my crazy 3.5 year old.

Thanks again,
Clocker

[MM#7]

Just an update:

2nd furnace guy was here. They are Michigan's largest factory authorized Bryant dealer.

First thing...I discovered I was mistaken about my current furnace size. It's a 90K/80% furnace. Brain fart on my part as I looked at the label before, even took a picture. Since it said 88K on their I must have gotten 80K on the brain. So I am looking at going from a 90K/80% to a 80K/95% (i.e. 72K BTU to 76K BTU). At least that's less chance I am going to be oversized. Sorry for misleading you guys!

I asked him about how many houses tend to have oversize systems. His line was that was mostly true of older homes. Since my house was built in the mid 90's he said they were better at building houses with the correct size to start with and that load calculations were required when the house was built here back then. Like most, I think he just can't justify doing a ManualJ but maybe some part of his statement is true.

I think he offered me a good deal. Basically, for about $200 more than the the first guy I am getting into an 355CAV Evolution Series rather than the 355BAV Preferred Plus. Plus he's also doing a whole house duct cleaning which he said will take about 2/3 of a day. I was never a person who thought too much of duct cleaning, and I still don't, but I guess it's worth something.

I was also really impressed with his professionalism, the amount of information about his company he gave me, and how he stressed his installers are constantly in training and on average have 23 years with the company. They also do their own electrical and have certified electricians hook everything up (lots of places don't he said). He said the install would take a full day from the time they start until the have it all tuned up with the burners etc. set properly. 10 year labor warranty is not optional with the job, they include it on every job they do.

They've been in business for 62 years so I guess they must be doing something right. Can I say who they are?

What really differentiates the 355CAV from the 355BAV with respect to the heating operation? He mentioned it has more precise control over house temp. IIRC, I think he said it had more stages but I was being distracted by my crazy 3.5 year old.

Thanks again,
Clocker

hey clock, just so you know, in the sceam of thinks 5k btus on a furnace is nothing! in the range your talking about! ex. if you had a furnace say it was a 75,000 80%=60,000 out put, and had a 70,000 80%,btu input with a 56ooo btu out put, if some one didn't tell you, you would never know one furnace was 4000btu less!any way this guy sounded good, also regarding this board, a lot of these people are stressing load calcs because to many installers just guess when it comes to sizing z house, at least when a load calc is done, people have a reference point to begin with, any hoo, good luck and let us know how it works out!

[AC Bad Dog]

ABCD- I agree with you 100%. Don't Agree with me, no one does I am very appreciative of those who are volunteering to help, as I have stated more than once. Good

Only thing I take exception with is some of the conclusions being drawn here that are based on nothing more than a guess.Correct Nobody here really knows if an 80K BTU furnace is oversize for me but several members sure act as if they know that with certainty with only a small bit of knowledge about the situation. Almost everybody's old furnace is oversized That's not good advice. I would say,get your house tested, than you will know, absent of that, my bet is with them I'd say it's worse than the advice I would get from any joe-contractorThat remark was inappropriate who doesn't run a Manual J.I have already stated I will take an experienced contractor over a Manual J any day At least he would see the house and my existing furnace.Trust me on this one, I can "size" your house from a sailboat in Bormes les Mimosas France as accurately as any "Joe Contractor" standing in your living room,and so can most of these guys. .

I think the only useful advice regarding furnace size that can be given in a forum like this is that you should get a Manual JI did not give you that advice, and would not take it myself. I said"get your House tested and make decisions from facts if you really want size your furnace right and try not to oversize but don't let yourself get too undersize, either. Maybe they need to make more sizes....60,70,80,90,100 etc.A modulating furnace could hav a range 40% to 100% so they already offer that. Also great because, as you have stated, loads are guesses

Nobody really talks about the risk of undersizing.I have never seen that on heating in 35 years. Fudge factors,there are internal loads in your house unaccounted for, your house holds heat. Yours would be the first I have seen I 've been very happy with the performance of my 80K/80% furnace. great It doesn't blast me out but it heats the house quick enough when I get home from work and I notice it running for relatively long periods on cold days. great If I go to a 60K/95% furnace, I'll lose 7K BTU in peak output.nothing, What if the house doesn't get warm enough or heat up fast enough on those cold days?non issuse I'd hear it from my wife because I didn't listen to joe contractor and tried to cheap out or over-optimize the furnace. :-)

You would not be "cheeping out", she will love the comfort, especially if you check out the rest of your house and fix that stuff as well. Buying an 80% oversized furnace because you were "Chaeping out" and never got your house tested is the real sin here. IMHO Hopefully She won't find out.


Get your house tested , find a local professional,and then do whatever you wife says.

Let us know how it turned out,

ACBD

[Clocker]

?

I was never looking at getting an 80% furnace.

Anyway, I think we're pretty much on the same page. Please don't take my comments personally.



Clocker