Question about Furnace Selection

[Clocker]

Hey that's what I said (regarding load calcs). :-)

[Clocker]

Did you know that a space heater puts out 5k? It's not very much heat.

So if you're concerned about 7k, keep a couple of space heaters on hand* just in case (for the two or three nights per year when the outdoor temp drops to design), and enjoy the comfort of a smaller unit the rest of the year.

Actually, just realized I currently have a 90K/80% furnace (see msg above). So going to a 60K/95% would end up with a capacity loss of 15k. Probably would not change your opinion but I just wanted to give you the correct info.

Given that I'll be getting a 3-stage system, I think I'll be very happy with the comfort level provided by an 80K either way.

[amd]

Current unit most likely oversized, 80k probably still oversized but being a 3-stage, you'll still get long cycles if the correct t-stat is used.

What percentage of the guys preaching load calcs have the equipment to do the above tests and spend the time doing the full survey? My bet, less than 3%,if that.

The problem is that a furnace replacement is viewed to be no different from an appliance replacement.

Prior to making changes to an hvac system, an energy audit with a blower door test (audits uncover problems which the homeowner wasn't aware of - I'm sure that most people only think of replacing windows and buying a new furnace when it comes to cutting energy costs) should always be performed by someone independent. In Canada it's done frequently now as part of a retrofit grant program.

Even if a blower door test isn't performed, anyone who is capable of using a screwdriver and measuring tape can do a decent load calc - it's not hard at all to check insulation levels and measure.

I don't believe that a load calc is always necessary, but if the contractor is unsure of which size to go for or a house has been rennovated, there's no excuse not to do one.

[beshvac]

I agree, I do one on every job and I do it accurate.

I do make educated guesses on duct leakage and infiltration inputs. I never guess at the whole thing

[Clocker]

you'll still get long cycles if the correct t-stat is used.

What do you recommend?

BTW, I don't have an Evolution air conditioner and I'm fine with going downstairs to adjust my humidity.

beshvac- Love your profile picture. What a cutie she is!

[beshvac]

Thanks, I've still got a few more years till she's a teen....and we are just heading out the door now to go fishin'

[amd]

I'm pretty sure that the evolution control (not sure what is does with a 1 or 2-stage t-stat) is required to run the 3-stage model without having it time out + switch to high prematurely.

A smaller, cheaper 2-stage furnace set up with a 2-stage stat can perform better than a 3-stage connected to a single stage stat.

If the evolution control is too expensive, get a smaller cheaper furnace (60k 2 stage, or maybe 70-75k of another brand) which can be utilized properly by a cheaper 2-stage stat.


Ultimately sizing, setup and commissioning are far more important than equipment selection. A lazy contractor can turn the best unit available into a builder's special (pos) so easily.

[Clocker]

What about this one:

http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewpro...ctID=453058679

?


It's a lot cheaper that the Evolution and it has 3-stage furnace control. I'd hate to pay full price for the Evolution when I'm not able to take advantage of some of the features because I don't have an Evolution A/C unit.

[AC Bad Dog]

Current unit most likely oversized, 80k probably still oversized but being a 3-stage, you'll still get long cycles if the correct t-stat is used.



The problem is that a furnace replacement is viewed to be no different from an appliance replacement.

Prior to making changes to an hvac system, an energy audit with a blower door test (audits uncover problems which the homeowner wasn't aware of - I'm sure that most people only think of replacing windows and buying a new furnace when it comes to cutting energy costs) should always be performed by someone independent. In Canada it's done frequently now as part of a retrofit grant program.

Even if a blower door test isn't performed, anyone who is capable of using a screwdriver and measuring tape can do a decent load calc - it's not hard at all to check insulation levels and measure.

I don't believe that a load calc is always necessary, but if the contractor is unsure of which size to go for or a house has been rennovated, there's no excuse not to do one.

Hey AMD,

You Just Told Me,

"Re: Load calcs, they can be accurate if...

- A blower door test is done and the cfm value at 50 pascals (I think) is plugged into the software
- Insulation is actually checked (open attic hatch, check basement, take covers off of outlets/switches, take a couple of other samples)
- The correct dimensions are used
- The correct window type of entered into the software.

Garbage in = garbage out."

Now you are telling me all I need is a Screw Driver. Perfect.

Tell me, what ACH value do you use for an old house? How about your duct loss/gain numbers when Ducts run through unconditioned Attics and Basements?

Fact is, Guys use numbers that make the calculations come out the way they want them to. Then as BesHVAC says "I do it accurate".

No one tests to actually know the values, so everybody makes big wild ass guesses, guys get all kinds of different answers, and,

Everybody is always right!

I love it!

What a business!

Good Luck,

ACBD

[AC Bad Dog]

I agree, I do one on every job and I do it accurate.

I do make educated guesses on duct leakage and infiltration inputs. I never guess at the whole thing

Hey beshavc.

I have taught Load calcs to over 7000 guys. I have never ever heard any one ever tell me anything other than "My load calcs are accurate". It was always the other guy's calcs that were inaccurate. Funny, I never met these other guys.

You are quite correct that you are making guesses on duct leakage and ACH values. You should also know that ACCA's Top Certified trainers agree with you. They will also tell anyone who asks, that our Modulating equipment, and 2 stage AC's cover a multitude of inaccuracies.

1.If you get the opportunity to have some blower door tests run on some houses you have done loads on you might be surprised by some new information, Those ACH guesses your making, have dramatic tolerances.

One thing that helped me to better understand these dynamics was, Facts. Facts have a way of presenting problems.

Some, prefer the Ostrich approach. Their cup is full, no room for new information. Don't want to be confused by facts.

2.As for exposed Ductwork, the story gets worse. Huge swings in your numbers. Try it. Find a couple homes who had the loss/leakage rates tested and rerun your load calc numbers with those results.

Again, The ACCA trainers will tell you that losses and gains even happen when all Ducts are in condition spaces. NCI will add that "System Losses" occur throughout our homes, and can reach up to 45%.

I'll buy you Free beer for life if you still say "I do it accurate" after you have this new information.

And, I will buy you a Beer, anytime we cross paths no matter what!

let me know,

AC BAD DOG

[MM#7]

Hey beshavc.

I have taught Load calcs to over 7000 guys. I have never ever heard any one ever tell me anything other than "My load calcs are accurate". It was always the other guy's calcs that were inaccurate. Funny, I never met these other guys.

You are quite correct that you are making guesses on duct leakage and ACH values. You should also know that ACCA's Top Certified trainers agree with you. They will also tell anyone who asks, that our Modulating equipment, and 2 stage AC's cover a multitude of inaccuracies.

1.If you get the opportunity to have some blower door tests run on some houses you have done loads on you might be surprised by some new information, Those ACH guesses your making, have dramatic tolerances.
That is one thing that help me to better understand these dynamics, Facts.
Some, prefer the Ostrich approach.

2.As for exposed Ductwork, the story gets worse. Huge swings in your numbers. Try it. Find a couple homes who had the loss/leakage rates tested
and rerun your numbers with those results.

Again, The ACCA trainers will tell you that losses and gains even happen when all Ducts are in condition spaces. NCI will add the "System Losses" occur through our homes and can reach up to 45%.

I'll buy you Free beer for life if you still say "I do it accurate" after you have this new information.

And, I will buy you a Beer, anytime we cross paths!

let me know,

AC BAD DOG

hey dog, question, if you have a colonial 2 story 2400 sq. ft house, how long would a load calc take you. time to the job/take measurement/go home/do calcs/written results?
how about a 1200 sq.ft. ranch?
do you charge for load calcs?
do you give a rough estime of load on a estimate. or do load calc, and hope you get job??
this blower door test, how long does it take, and do you charge customer?

[AC Bad Dog]

hey dog, question, if you have a colonial 2 story 2400 sq. ft house, how long would a load calc take you. time to the job/take measurement/go home/do calcs/written results?
how about a 1200 sq.ft. ranch?
do you charge for load calcs?
do you give a rough estime of load on a estimate. or do load calc, and hope you get job??
this blower door test, how long does it take, and do you charge customer?

Hey, MM#7

I will answer each question, if you tell me why you ask?

ACBD

[MM#7]

Hey, MM#7

I will answer each question, if you tell me why you ask?

ACBD

why, cause i'm interested, i talked to a friend of mine last year, and he did estimate on a house, the person told him he already had 11 estimates, this friend of mine, a very big co. was the twelveth estimate and sears was coming tomorow which would make it 13 estimates. this is in bergen county nj, outside nyc! so look at all the wasted time if all did load calcs! seems to me giving a rough estimate, then firming it up with a load calc, if you get the job sound reasonable!
as far as time to do a calc, just curious! when you figure a 2400 sq. ft. house, windows,walls,ceiling height , attic insul., checking behind out lets etc, just curious that;s all.
but if its a secrete or what ever, no problem, but on standard houses in a neighboorhood a lot of guys do use a rule of thumb based on doing many of the same type houses in comprable areas, though, new rules and regs are coming on board in different states

[AC Bad Dog]

hey dog, question, if you have a colonial 2 story 2400 sq. ft house, how long would a load calc take you. time to the job/take measurement/go home/do calcs/written results?5 Minutes Max, Total Time
how about a 1200 sq.ft. ranch? 5 Minutes MAX Total Time
do you charge for load calcs?I would not
do you give a rough estime of load on a estimateI would tell my customers no one knows what the loads are. I would focus on the ACCA AED Graph of the cooling and focus on Modulating Heating, Because, No one knows what the loads are and loads change every second. or do load calc, and hope you get job??As I have stated a Load calculation is counterproductive to selling High End HVAC and Making Money
this blower door test, how long does it takethe best guy to help you with this question is TedKidd. He is a frequent poster on the site, I am sure he will help you, and do you charge customer?

So, your load calc works against you.It does the opposite of what you think it does. Especially with High END consumers like those in Bergen NJ. I actually designed the system for EDDIE Murphy's house in Bergen 20 years ago.

The load commoditizes you! It makes the sale it about Efficiency and Equipment size. Now I just compare prices.

The customer needs to know, YOU DA MAN!

Instead, talk to your customer about how their loads change every minute and that's why you will design them the Killer System using Modulating equipment that shifts capacities to changing loads and zoning that will keep all their spaces perfect for them.That is why you sell zoning. Once your customer gets it they will ask why the other guys sell single stage, it makes no sense. Their right!

Also, 11 out of those 13 guys have never sold High End, are afraid of it, so now they are out of the picture. Its now Just you and one other High End guy talking to the customer about a 15K dual fuel system, rather than 13 morons trying to figure out who can sell a 13 seer dry ship cheaper than the other moron.(Hey, but they an a load)

Shift your focus away from commodities, and onto zoning, 2 Stage, Modulating, and anything you can find to run away from the pack. Once you have a nice job, A 2 Stage Dual Fuel with a new Zoning system, now go sit down and play with your new Right J Draw board and knock yourself out figuring how you are going to hit all those rooms and move 1600cfm out and bring 1600cfm back. You are getting paid now.

Leave the initial load calc act home, The high end consumer expects you to know your sht. They expect you will do whatever you should. They do not want to watch you type. Do you watch your accountant type?Does he make a big Deal of using the current Tax code?

The whole thing is kinda silly.

Good Luck

ACBD

[MM#7]

So, your load calc works against you.It does the opposite of what you think it does. Especially with High END consumers like those in Bergen NJ. I actually designed the system for EDDIE Murphy's house in Bergen 20 years ago.

The load commoditizes you! It makes the sale it about Efficiency and Equipment size. Now I just compare prices.

Instead, talk to your customer about how their loads change every minute and that's why you sell Modulating equipment that shifts capacities to changing loads.That is why you sell zoning. Once your customer gets it they will ask why the other guys sell single stage, it makes no sense. Their right!

Also, 11 out of those 13 guys have never sold High End, are afraid of it, so now they are out of the picture. Its now Just you and one other High End guy talking to the customer about a 15K dual fuel system, rather than 13 morons trying to figure out who can sell a 13 seer dry ship cheaper than the other moron.(Hey, but they an a load)

Shift your focus away from commodities, and onto zoning, 2 Stage, Modulating, and anything you can find to run away from the pack. Once you have a nice job, A 2 Stage Dual Fuel with a new Zoning system, now go sit down and play with your new Right J Draw board and knock yourself out figuring how you are going to hit all those rooms and move 1600cfm out and bring 1600cfm back. You are getting paid now.

Leave the initial load calc act home, The high end consumer expects you to know your sht. They expect you will do whatever you should. They do not want to watch you type. Do you watch your accountant type?Does he make a big Deal of using the current Tax code?

The whole thing is kinda silly.

Good Luck

ACBD

good info,thanks, ps this friend of mine didn't send this guy an estimate, when he asked the home owner some of the #'S he was getting, he told him we probably can't help you ,said thanks and left. a lot of tire kickers out there!, any way good post!

[MM#7]

good info,thanks, ps this friend of mine didn't send this guy an estimate, when he asked the home owner some of the #'S he was getting, he told him we probably can't help you ,said thanks and left. a lot of tire kickers out there!, any way good post!

yeah, believe it or not i was in his house, he lives/lived in alpine! hi end!
i went to bergen tech yearssss ago, in hackensack,

[AC Bad Dog]

So, your load calc works against you.It does the opposite of what you think it does. Especially with High END consumers like those in Bergen NJ. I actually designed the system for EDDIE Murphy's house in Bergen 20 years ago.

The load commoditizes you! It makes the sale it about Efficiency and Equipment size. Now I just compare prices.

The customer needs to know, YOU DA MAN! You Gotta Be Clint!

Instead, talk to your customer about how their loads change every minute and that's why you will design them the Killer System using Modulating equipment that shifts capacities to changing loads and zoning that will keep all their spaces perfect for them.That is why you sell zoning. Once your customer gets it they will ask why the other guys sell single stage, it makes no sense. Their right!

Also, 11 out of those 13 guys have never sold High End, are afraid of it, so now they are out of the picture. Its now Just you and one other High End guy talking to the customer about a 15K dual fuel system, rather than 13 morons trying to figure out who can sell a 13 seer dry ship cheaper than the other moron.(Hey, but they an a load)

Shift your focus away from commodities, and onto zoning, 2 Stage, Modulating, and anything you can find to run away from the pack. Once you have a nice job, A 2 Stage Dual Fuel with a new Zoning system, now go sit down and play with your new Right J Draw board and knock yourself out figuring how you are going to hit all those rooms and move 1600cfm out and bring 1600cfm back. You are getting paid now.

Leave the initial load calc act home, The high end consumer expects you to know your sht. They expect you will do whatever you should. They do not want to watch you type. Do you watch your accountant type?Does he make a big Deal of using the current Tax code?

The whole thing is kinda silly.


MM#7
"yeah, believe it or not i was in his house, he lives/lived in alpine! hi end!
i went to bergen tech yearssss ago, in hackensack," MM#7



HEY MM#7,

I find it serendipitous that while I was designing Eddie Murphy's house in Bergen 20 years back, you were in Tech School there. It is quite amazing that you were in his house! I hope you found it Comfortable! 20 years later here we both are, still in HVAC.

I would also like to apologize to you for questioning your motives in asking your questions. My Apologies to you.

The whole point is just to move past all the tricks, techniques, and dog and pony shows. The customers you want will respond best to a "LooK em in the eye, and tell em the Truth" approach. Like Clint.

I trained over 1000 WaterFurnace dealers to sell Geo Thermal units that cost $ for a typical 3 ton unit. This customer assumes you know what you are doing and will do what it takes to do it correctly.

In our classes, we leaned how visualize ourselves as Clint Eastwood, selling air conditioners.

I will leave you with a skit I did with the Chairman of the Board of WaterFurnace(He Plays the Bartender) at one of their meetings.


It is a bit silly, but I hope you find it entertaining. The last 7 minutes are best. There is a 20 second commercial first.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v18851655N...Clint+Eastwood

Thanks,

ACBD