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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    Hey Kidd, I the sins are bigger than you think.

    [QUOTE=tedkidd;10953002]Very funny stuff ACBD, thanks for the e-mail.
    Flattered to see my name in your poem. Really entertaining thread.

    Bill, thanks for not putting MY face on there!

    On the Manual J: I think placing so much blame on it completely misses the point. That's really not fair and a bit dangerous. How much capacity are these people really getting from their 4 ton systems attached to 2.5 tons of leaky duct, with duct going through 150f attics? Oh, and none of the windows are locked tight... It's blaming tires because the car is performing badly:



    Hey Kidd,

    Guys that sell AC's are always telling the Nice Lady how much, or about how much she's gonna save on the power bill. That is why we have a SEER.

    But, As we have discussed, without testing they don't know any of the values to use for the inputs to their load calcs, they use the values that give them the answers they like. Ok.

    Now we stuff these loads into an operating cost program. What is wrong with that?

    Well,

    Loads to big
    No accounting for thermal mass
    No accounting for solar offset to heating
    No accounting for absorption offset to heating

    Then,
    SEER is bogus and designed to lie
    HSPF is totally bogus

    Then, we assume escalation rates on fuels, Bogus!

    Then, The nice lady changes her lifestyle and lives more comfortably.

    So the initial lie, and blunt installment tool, is then compounded, by all the succeeding lies, we tell. The nice lady only saved 20% of what we told her.
    (we told her $500 she actually saved $100)

    But it's a year later till she figures that out. So O well.

    If it wasn't for flat out lying to the customer our industry wouldn't sell anything.

    Is this OK?

    How are any of us getting past St. Peter and into heaven?

    Help Me, I'm a sinner..

    ACBD

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    999
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacvegas View Post
    "

    Hey, My Sympathies,
    I hope this helps.

    Temps are high,
    Customers are bitcin,
    And Manual J, has gone Missin..

    Trying to keep cool by stripping down to your speedo's,
    Now that the outside temp is over 1 plus 2 zeros,
    How come we can't find all our load calc Heros?

    The "Cover Your Ass" guys are looking pretty smart,
    Sizing your system is less science, and more of an ART,
    And throwing out your laptop is a good place to start.
    (or; get Tedkidd to make your house so tight, you come back in two weeks and still smell your Fart)

    Most of your customers who are truly in need,
    Will be happy as clams with a brand new Two Speed,
    And then. No mater what happens, they have the capacity they need.

    Sell them two air conditioners at the same time,
    And they will be comfortable all of the time.
    Save them your load calc dog and pony show, and save yourself some time.
    Just look em in the eye and read them this rhyme.

    AC BAD DOG
    Copy + Paste, everywhere.

    Funny as all get out.[/QUOTE]

    Try reading it with a little Rap rhythm in your head (or one of those electronic keyboards).
    Last edited by ampulman; 08-05-2011 at 03:09 PM. Reason: afterthought

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Waxahachie TX/stuck in Santa Clara CA
    Posts
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Harper View Post
    If you think your house is too hot, go sit on your roof for an hour and then go back inside.
    Whatever you do, don't go in your attic

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,721
    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Whats wrong with misting the condenser coil during peak of the day heat?
    Interested in the negatives.
    Maybe we should spray water on the roof too.... Or cut big holes into the attic...

    Shouldn't the question be what are the positives? This looks like another poke-n-hope, feels like it should accomplish something (although we can't measure the results), we can always say "it helped" - money wasting experiment.

    ACBD, to make a decent living at this do you have to sell your soul? Do you have to lie about results like many a window guy? Since I have yet to figure out how to make a decent living at this I can't answer that question, but my results are tying back to the TREAT promise.

    NYSERDA unintentionally exacerbated the incentive to lie by requiring 1.01 SIR or no incentive (so people are "exaggerating" blower door test in, "improving" with 30 CFL's, and basically forced to figure out how to GAME the program). They were not given a choice, the PSC required it.

    If you overstate how crappy the house is currently so the customer qualifies for incentives and financing, of course savings will not meet the model.

    Incentives need to be created to somehow align also with RESULTS. How? Good question!

    One way would be to track promised results to actual, and rate the contractors against the modelled promise. That requires a lightweight way of tracking consumption after projects are completed. I think eventually we will get here, if the energy companies would just allow easier access to energy consumption.

    Contractors that lie for short term gain will eventually have it catch up to them. They'll have a lower promised to delivered rating. I think this would put pressure on quality in a very elegant way.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    Dude, I love it. Guarantee the savings (or pay the difference)

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Maybe we should spray water on the roof too.... Or cut big holes into the attic...

    Shouldn't the question be what are the positives? This looks like another poke-n-hope, feels like it should accomplish something (although we can't measure the results), we can always say "it helped" - money wasting experiment.

    ACBD, to make a decent living at this do you have to sell your soul? Do you have to lie about results like many a window guy? Since I have yet to figure out how to make a decent living at this I can't answer that question, but my results are tying back to the TREAT promise.

    NYSERDA unintentionally exacerbated the incentive to lie by requiring 1.01 SIR or no incentive (so people are "exaggerating" blower door test in, "improving" with 30 CFL's, and basically forced to figure out how to GAME the program). They were not given a choice, the PSC required it.

    If you overstate how crappy the house is currently so the customer qualifies for incentives and financing, of course savings will not meet the model.

    Incentives need to be created to somehow align also with RESULTS. How? Good question!

    One way would be to track promised results to actual, and rate the contractors against the modelled promise. That requires a lightweight way of tracking consumption after projects are completed. I think eventually we will get here, if the energy companies would just allow easier access to energy consumption.

    Contractors that lie for short term gain will eventually have it catch up to them. They'll have a lower promised to delivered rating. I think this would put pressure on quality in a very elegant way.
    Dude, you did it.

    How many AC guys would sign up for a program where saving promises were compared to savings delivered? Any ratio close to 1 you get into heaven. Over 1 you sing in the choir , if you are way under 1 you go to hell.

    Perfect!

    Customer could not only see the savings promised but the companies odds of delivering.

    So a company with high average savings and a savings to estimate ratio of one or more would be at the top of your list. AVG Savings x Savings/Estimate = Best AC Guy index.

    Wow,

    Who is in?

    ACBD

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bad Dog View Post
    Dude, you did it.

    How many AC guys would sign up for a program where saving promises were compared to savings delivered? Any ratio close to 1 you get into heaven. Over 1 you sing in the choir , if you are way under 1 you go to hell.

    Perfect!

    Customer could not only see the savings promised but the companies odds of delivering.

    So a company with high average savings and a savings to estimate ratio of one or more would be at the top of your list. AVG Savings x Savings/Estimate = Best AC Guy index.

    Wow,

    Who is in?

    ACBD
    We do it in commercial buildings already, it's call LEED Leadership in Energy and Environmental design. we take a building make x improvements, plumbing, electric and HVAC. Save the customer x amount a year, cost a customer x amount to perform said improvements, with a payback annalysis, and all the jazz that goes along
    It's hard to stop a Trane. but I have made one helluva living keeping them going.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    Be Careful with LEED. they are on the ropes for not delivering

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    We do it in commercial buildings already, it's call LEED Leadership in Energy and Environmental design. we take a building make x improvements, plumbing, electric and HVAC. Save the customer x amount a year, cost a customer x amount to perform said improvements, with a payback annalysis, and all the jazz that goes along
    Yo Southern Man,

    Be careful with LEED, lots of push back recently from buildings not delivering.

    Thanks,

    ACBD

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bad Dog View Post
    Yo Southern Man,

    Be careful with LEED, lots of push back recently from buildings not delivering.

    Thanks,

    ACBD
    I don't touch it, way to much promised. We I say We, I work for Trane, we have had good success so far according to the higher above.
    It's hard to stop a Trane. but I have made one helluva living keeping them going.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec.
    Posts
    71
    As a homeowner I'll take tedkidd any day. I am fighting this type of attitude in my area as we speak. I need a new furnace and HP. Spent considerable money for an engineering firm to do a proper manual-j, however I am fighting contractors with their rule of thumb. " we know best". "I've been doing this for 30 years". Well sir, you've been doing it wrong for 30 years. I'm getting quotes with coils that don't match equipment, AHRI that are lies, you name it. A big number at the end with no details, we will put it in, trust us. No thanks.

    Tedkidd, hang tight. If you were in my area you would be installing my system tomorrow

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,956
    Quote Originally Posted by Norm01 View Post
    As a homeowner I'll take tedkidd any day. I am fighting this type of attitude in my area as we speak. I need a new furnace and HP. Spent considerable money for an engineering firm to do a proper manual-j, however I am fighting contractors with their rule of thumb. " we know best". "I've been doing this for 30 years". Well sir, you've been doing it wrong for 30 years. I'm getting quotes with coils that don't match equipment, AHRI that are lies, you name it. A big number at the end with no details, we will put it in, trust us. No thanks.

    Tedkidd, hang tight. If you were in my area you would be installing my system tomorrow
    Sounds like you are doing your homework! That is the most important step any homeowner should take. You say you spent a considerable amount of money for an engineering firm to do a proper manual j-? but the hvac contractors won't install what that manual j dictates?
    Is the engineering firm going to give you a warranty that if you install the size of system they recommend and it is not sized properly, they will fully cover the cost of having the proper sized system installed? I would go with the company that has the signed contract & the pockets to stand behind their claims.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    1,646
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Sounds like you are doing your homework! That is the most important step any homeowner should take. You say you spent a considerable amount of money for an engineering firm to do a proper manual j-? but the hvac contractors won't install what that manual j dictates?
    Is the engineering firm going to give you a warranty that if you install the size of system they recommend and it is not sized properly, they will fully cover the cost of having the proper sized system installed? I would go with the company that has the signed contract & the pockets to stand behind their claims.
    Engineer's sheese.

    but if it has a stamp it's there tail, and the owner paid for the design. Contract to do said work would include these facts and not my problem if said system would not cut it.

    I would love to have engineered stamps on work, takes out installing companies liability as long as installation was to the ''t''
    It's hard to stop a Trane. but I have made one helluva living keeping them going.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Montreal, Quebec.
    Posts
    71
    Quote Originally Posted by tipsrfine View Post
    Sounds like you are doing your homework! That is the most important step any homeowner should take. You say you spent a considerable amount of money for an engineering firm to do a proper manual j-? but the hvac contractors won't install what that manual j dictates?
    Is the engineering firm going to give you a warranty that if you install the size of system they recommend and it is not sized properly, they will fully cover the cost of having the proper sized system installed? I would go with the company that has the signed contract & the pockets to stand behind their claims.
    They have been closed for construction shut down these last two weeks however this is exactly what I will ask them on Monday. I followed what I felt was the right path, and I don't regret it however I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Time to dig out .

    I'll tell you, I had 125kBtu and 3.5T. Study says 56kBtu and 2T. I'm leaning to 80k and 3T however I need to challenge them on their assumptions on the manual-j first.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Winter Haven, FL
    Posts
    4,355
    In my opinion (which may not be worth very much), manual j doesn't accurately account for the volume of the home. Homes with vaulted ceilings need more cfm's than the load specified can deliver. I found this out on my last house. It was 1700 sqft and had vaulted ceilings that peaked at 14 feet. Manual J specified 32400 btu at 75/95. At 93 the system could only maintain 78. I did go through everything to make sure it was running properly, including static pressure. Ran the house on a carrier commercial load sheet and came up 39900 btu's.
    But here is the flip side. Now I have a 2400 sqft home with massive window area. 32 jalousy windows each at least 3x5. R-11 insulation, and flat ceilings. Manual j says 74100 btu's. I have a a 4 ton unit. I can cycle at 72 on a 96 degree day.

    So what is the good middle ground?

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