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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Cincinnati, Oh
    Posts
    5,014
    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bad Dog View Post
    " Every one in my area is posting that there system will not keep up.....so I assume it just because we are so much over our normal highs. I have a 4 ton 16 seer Carrier Infinity heat pump.
    "

    Hey, My Sympathies,
    I hope this helps.

    Temps are high,
    Customers are bitcin,
    And Manual J, has gone Missin..

    Trying to keep cool by stripping down to your speedo's,
    Now that the outside temp is over 1 plus 2 zeros,
    How come we can't find all our load calc Heros?

    The "Cover Your Ass" guys are looking pretty smart,
    Sizing your system is less science, and more of an ART,
    And throwing out your laptop is a good place to start.
    (or; get Tedkidd to make your house so tight, you come back in two weeks and still smell your Fart)

    Most of your customers who are truly in need,
    Will be happy as clams with a brand new Two Speed,
    And then. No mater what happens, they have the capacity they need.

    Sell them two air conditioners at the same time,
    And they will be comfortable all of the time.
    Save them your load calc dog and pony show, and save yourself some time.
    Just look em in the eye and read them this rhyme.

    AC BAD DOG[/QUOTE]

    Copy + Paste, everywhere.

    Funny as all get out.
    "Better tell the sandman to stay away, because we're gonna be workin on this one all night."

    "Dude, you need more than 2 wires to a condenser to run a 2 stage heatpump."

    "Just get it done son."

    Dad adjusted

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    6,837
    Here's a little trick you can use to help troubleshoot losses through the duct system. If your system is sized for a particular design temperature and the load is exactly sized to the equipment, then when you reach outdoor design temperature the unit should just maintain the design indoor temperature. For example, 95°F outdoors = 75° indoors and the unit is operating continuously. Now as the outdoor temperature goes above 95°, the indoor temperature should follow suit, going up 1°F for every 1°F over 95°. If you can maintain that 1:1 relationship as the temperature rises and again when it falls, then all or at least the vast majority of the cold air created at the indoor coil is arriving in the conditioned space.

    If on the other hand for every 1°F outdoors rise the indoor temperature goes up 1.5° or more, then you're likely losing cool air to the unconditioned spaces through which your ducts pass.

    It's not uncommon to find a duct system that leaks in excess of 20% (a combination of return and supply) and yet can maintain indoor temperature right up to design. The reason is that the equipment actually is almost never exactly sized to the load due to there only being 7 sizes of single speed condensers. So the next larger one is normally selected, resulting in some over sizing. That over sizing works to mask losses to unconditioned spaces. But once you arrive at design (or there abouts) if you're blowing air into unconditioned spaces any size advantage has been lost and you'll end up with temperatures indoors rising faster than if the entire 'excess' capacity was being delivered to the indoor spaces.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Round Rock
    Posts
    3,550
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    I'm not in hiding I'd rather have designed a system that looses ground over design temp then be in court for mold remediation
    I'm not getting sued in court. Nor are my customers complaining. Their houses aren't 70 right now. But they aren't 82 either. And it was 109 here today before the heat index. It's a little bit art and a little bit science. You can't place everything in the almighty manual j. You might get sued that way as well. You gotta know what you're doing and have experience.
    I like DIY'ers. They pay better to fix.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    OK , lets see what new ideas we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bad Dog View Post
    " Every one in my area is posting that there system will not keep up.....so I assume it just because we are so much over our normal highs. I have a 4 ton 16 seer Carrier Infinity heat pump.
    "

    Hey, My Sympathies,
    I hope this helps.

    Temps are high,
    Customers are bitcin,
    And Manual J, has gone Missin..

    Trying to keep cool by stripping down to your speedo's,
    Now that the outside temp is over 1 plus 2 zeros,
    How come we can't find all our load calc Heros?

    The "Cover Your Ass" guys are looking pretty smart,
    Sizing your system is less science, and more of an ART,
    And throwing out your laptop is a good place to start.
    (or; get Tedkidd to make your house so tight, you come back in two weeks and still smell your Fart)

    Most of your customers who are truly in need,
    Will be happy as clams with a brand new Two Speed,
    And then. No mater what happens, they have the capacity they need.

    Sell them two air conditioners at the same time,
    And they will be comfortable all of the time.
    Save them your load calc dog and pony show, and save yourself some time.
    Just look em in the eye and read them this rhyme.



    So.

    Put a "Sprinkler on your roof", while you're being told,
    "you should be happy, at least you don't have Mold!"

    Or go "sit on your house" with your "sprinkler" and "mold",
    Might as well take a shower while your up there, then you'll be cold.

    They want to explain why your air conditioner won't work today,
    But that's not what they said when they did their Manual J

    Even when you read their lips as they speaks,
    todays temperature is the same as its been for three weeks!

    Manual J just guesses and he lies through his teeth,
    Now he's run out of town, in the night, like a thief.

    One thing is for sure, and this is all I have to say.
    We've all been fooled, by Manual J

    ACBD

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Down by the river
    Posts
    1,651
    Quote Originally Posted by bmathews View Post
    I'm not getting sued in court. Nor are my customers complaining. Their houses aren't 70 right now. But they aren't 82 either. And it was 109 here today before the heat index. It's a little bit art and a little bit science. You can't place everything in the almighty manual j. You might get sued that way as well. You gotta know what you're doing and have experience.
    and this is where it gets touchy, in my area design is 78* in 93*days, well I design to 74* cause nobody keeps ther house at 78*, so I am ahead of the game a tad, I don't have issues. am I wrong on code design indoor is 78* not 75*?

    I mean come on guys its effin hot here, units only designed for 95* OAT.

    the ryhms are cool, more power to ya, some people do the bare min to meet code and to get the cheapest quote out to the work.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    15,970
    Uncle Bob offers a Burger with his Manual J's

    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Toledo, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    12,910
    Twillt says too funny
    No Heat No Cool You need Action Fast

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    Dude, you made an old dog laugh!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Uncle Bob offers a Burger with his Manual J's

    Yo, Bless you. Thanks For that.

    Every J I ever had was manual.

    ACBD

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Howell, Michigan
    Posts
    16,176
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Uncle Bob offers a Burger with his Manual J's


    Uncle Bob wishes he could photo shop like Mr. Bill....................ROTFLMAO!

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,722
    Very funny stuff ACBD, thanks for the e-mail.
    Flattered to see my name in your poem. Really entertaining thread.

    Bill, thanks for not putting MY face on there!

    On the Manual J: I think placing so much blame on it completely misses the point. That's really not fair and a bit dangerous. How much capacity are these people really getting from their 4 ton systems attached to 2.5 tons of leaky duct, with duct going through 150f attics? Oh, and none of the windows are locked tight... It's blaming tires because the car is performing badly:

    "My neighbors Mercedes is so much more comfortable than my '78 Nova, must be the tires fault! Should I get bigger tires?"


    SOME REALLY GREAT POSTS!

    Quote Originally Posted by skippedover View Post
    Here's a little trick you can use to help troubleshoot losses through the duct system. If your system is sized for a particular design temperature and the load is exactly sized to the equipment, then when you reach outdoor design temperature the unit should just maintain the design indoor temperature. For example, 95°F outdoors = 75° indoors and the unit is operating continuously. Now as the outdoor temperature goes above 95°, the indoor temperature should follow suit, going up 1°F for every 1°F over 95°. If you can maintain that 1:1 relationship as the temperature rises and again when it falls, then all or at least the vast majority of the cold air created at the indoor coil is arriving in the conditioned space.

    If on the other hand for every 1°F outdoors rise the indoor temperature goes up 1.5° or more, then you're likely losing cool air to the unconditioned spaces through which your ducts pass.

    It's not uncommon to find a duct system that leaks in excess of 20% (a combination of return and supply) and yet can maintain indoor temperature right up to design. The reason is that the equipment actually is almost never exactly sized to the load due to there only being 7 sizes of single speed condensers. So the next larger one is normally selected, resulting in some over sizing. That over sizing works to mask losses to unconditioned spaces.But once you arrive at design (or there abouts) if you're blowing air into unconditioned spaces any size advantage has been lost and you'll end up with temperatures indoors rising faster than if the entire 'excess' capacity was being delivered to the indoor spaces.
    Quote Originally Posted by 2old2rock View Post
    It does not hurt the unit to run continuously, as long as it is clean, and charged properly.
    Pick 1 temp and stick with it.
    And don't waste your time hosing off the condenser once an hour.
    Let 'em run.

    Quote Originally Posted by 2old2rock View Post
    It does not hurt the unit to run continuously, as long as it is clean, and charged properly.
    Pick 1 temp and stick with it.
    And don't waste your time hosing off the condenser once an hour.
    Stop fiddling with the dial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    I'm not in hiding I'd rather have designed a system that looses ground over design temp then be in court for mold remediation
    If your house is sticky, be concerned.

    AND POSTS THAT SHOULD BE RESPONDED TO...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmathews View Post
    I'm not getting sued in court. Nor are my customers complaining. Their houses aren't 70 right now. But they aren't 82 either. And it was 109 here today before the heat index. It's a little bit art and a little bit science. You can't place everything in the almighty manual j. You might get sued that way as well. You gotta know what you're doing and have experience.
    You assume all is well, but how do you know? Mold doesn't just show up in a day, it's a gradual thing.

    How do you know 80% of your installs aren't producing high humidity environments? Homeowners don't understand that "clammy ac" is the cause, and since you aren't there to tell them, they don't know.

    Unless the homeowner wants to change duct work, I think we need to have that limit the size we install. Make it clear going bigger will not help and it WILL make costs dramatically accelerate (equipment install, energy, repair, equipment life, and possibly moisture remediation)
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,373
    Whats wrong with misting the condenser coil during peak of the day heat?
    Interested in the negatives.

    All this fear of 6-8^F over-sizing?? Undersized a/cs are unable to maintain <50%RH with low/no cooling loads and +60^F outdoor dew points. If you are getting adequate fresh air and have several occupants, you need a supplemental dehumidification to maintain <50%RH. So size up enough to handle the 6-8^F above design and you have a good whole house dehu to provide <50%RH during cool evenings and cool wet weather.
    I agree with the idea that this is the opportunity to find/upgrade the weak spots of the home, like excessive radient heat, duct leaks, and insulation. Keep in mind this will increase the need for supplemental dehumidification during wet cool weather. Thats a good thing.
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Arnold mo
    Posts
    3,966
    Whats wrong with misting the condenser coil during peak of the day heat?
    Interested in the negatives.

    The only negative I know is mineral deposits building up on the coil.
    An answer without a question is meaningless.
    Information without understanding is useless.
    You can lead a horse to water............
    http://www.mohomeenergyaudits.com

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    San Jose California
    Posts
    168
    An inline water filter would help.

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