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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
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    Down by the river
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    thanks for the above info. enough was said to make me want learn more into this type of situation.
    It's hard to stop a Trane. but I have made one helluva living keeping them going.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    my ducts dont leak, sealed with mastic my self.
    Wow, did some really impressive sealing!! Definitely pat yourself of the back for THAT result!

    But c'mon, there is really no such thing as NO leakage. When you tested the leakage after your work, what was the leakage number?

    (By now you may be reeling from this ropadope, keep in mind we're trying to be helpful and it's not real blood. And on the other side of this 15 rounds is useful knowledge.)
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Down by the river
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    1,578
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Wow, did some really impressive sealing!! Definitely pat yourself of the back for THAT result!

    But c'mon, there is really no such thing as NO leakage. When you tested the leakage after your work, what was the leakage number?

    (By now you may be reeling from this ropadope, keep in mind we're trying to be helpful and it's not real blood. And on the other side of this 15 rounds is useful knowledge.)
    good point
    It's hard to stop a Trane. but I have made one helluva living keeping them going.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,086
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    thanks for the above info. enough was said to make me want learn more into this type of situation.
    Excellent! It's my belief that anyone who wants to do well in the HVAC trade should understand psychrometrics. I'm certain that if you do dig further into learning about it, you'll find it very rewarding.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    4,632
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    thanks for the above info. enough was said to make me want learn more into this type of situation.
    Come join the fun on the building science forum. Because it's not public we can be less concerned about how the discussion goes. (Not so much ropa dope there.)
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Yuma, AZ
    Posts
    2,361
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Mech View Post
    thanks for the above info. enough was said to make me want learn more into this type of situation.
    None of us was born understanding the scary psychometric chart. Take it a step at a time. Step one in this discussion: The horizontal lines are the absolute humidity or water content of a pound of air in pounds of water (or grains of water...which is 1/7000 of a pound.) There is a wealth of knowledge in that chart.
    "I have never let my schooling interfere with my education."
    Mark Twain
    More at: http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/education/

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
    Posts
    798
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Harikrishna to you... You drank the cool aid.

    I know about that course. Jim Davis NCI class? Yeah, mix inside and outside air to tweak efficiency, max gas pressure, etc... right? Some good stuff but misses the point that furnaces are installed in houses which exist in continuously varying conditions, most of which don't ever come close to design.

    If you want hypersimplified answers to complex interactions, don't be surprised when results are much different than you expect.

    Tuning a single stage at steady state and saying "see how much we're saving" is bunk. Houses don't exist on race tracks where you can keep equipment at full load continuously. Life ain't Nascar. Load changes and your ability to maintain steady state at your tuned output is a pipe dream. We live at design temp about 1% of the time.

    Clocking meters for 5 minutes to prove a point, really? In the end, what is your annual spend per square foot. I want to know the whole year, not 5 minutes under laboratory conditions.
    again...how will a properly operating furnace burn out a heat exchanger? it wont. actually the jury is still out on the life of modulating furnaces due to the fact they heat the heat exchange so unevenly.
    design temp for a furnace? the load doesnt change. people set their tstat and it usually doesnt vary for than +/- 4 degrees the whole winter. return air is the same temp. the btu value of the NG usually changes less than +/- 2%.so yea, its pretty much operating under the same conditions the whole time. whether its 30 degrees or -30 degrees out side....that doesnt affect the load on the heater, just the run time. i think YOU drank the kool aid straight from the mfr.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,632
    Quote Originally Posted by Gross View Post
    design temp for a furnace? the load doesnt change. people set their tstat and it usually doesnt vary for than +/- 4 degrees the whole winter. return air is the same temp. the btu value of the NG usually changes less than +/- 2%.so yea, its pretty much operating under the same conditions the whole time. whether its 30 degrees or -30 degrees out side....that doesnt affect the load on the heater, just the run time. i think YOU drank the kool aid straight from the mfr.
    Load doesn't change? I guess run time is insignificant? Run time doesn't effect duct temperature variation throughout the envelope. Duct temperature doesn't impact comfort. Comfort has nothing to do with how people operate equipment. hmmm.

    Next you'll say run time doesn't effect efficiency.

    Then you'll tell us one size fits all, we shouldn't worry about putting 100mbtu furnaces on 35,000 btu homes. Optimizing rated efficiency, that's all that matters.

    Anyone else have a problem with the path he's following? Anybody else think this is an incredibly myopic perspective: "Look, we're just gonna focus on how the furnace operates in it's own little vacuum here in the lab, what's happening with the house is irrelevant!"
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
    Posts
    798
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Load doesn't change? I guess run time is insignificant? Run time doesn't effect duct temperature variation throughout the envelope. Duct temperature doesn't impact comfort. Comfort has nothing to do with how people operate equipment. hmmm.

    Next you'll say run time doesn't effect efficiency.

    Then you'll tell us one size fits all, we shouldn't worry about putting 100mbtu furnaces on 35,000 btu homes. Optimizing rated efficiency, that's all that matters.

    Anyone else have a problem with the path he's following? Anybody else think this is an incredibly myopic perspective: "Look, we're just gonna focus on how the furnace operates in it's own little vacuum here in the lab, what's happening with the house is irrelevant!"
    ill say that short run time decreases efficiency, once the machine is to operating temperature, just like anything else that radiates heat, its most efficient. I didnt say anything about putting 1000 btu in the home is well and fine. Please dont make things up and shove them in my mouth...you sound like a politician.... ill say that COMFORT and EFFICIENCY are two different things.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,764
    Rheem's mod has been out at least 15 years now. Haven't heard that they have any problems with their HXs failing.
    Contractor locator map

    How-to-apply-for-Professional

    How many times must one fix something before it is fixed?

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
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    I don't think I shoved anything in your mouth. But why do I suspect you haven't looked at 2 energy bills belonging to others?

    How often have you sat down and discussed with LIVING PEOPLE how they occupy and operate their homes while reviewing energy use? Ever educated them (or yourself) about building science?

    No?

    So, would you say you really have a clue what works and what doesn't? Or are you just parroting what they force fed you at that class?

    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Rheem's mod has been out at least 15 years now. Haven't heard that they have any problems with their HXs failing.
    I just did an audit on a 1800 sf house with under 400 ANNUAL therm use. They keep it cold, but that's still a really amazing number.

    Total annual gas AND electric is about $700. No, no wood stove. Yes, I looked for extension cords to the neighbors.

    9 year old rheem mod.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    999
    Quote Originally Posted by beenthere View Post
    Rheem's mod has been out at least 15 years now. Haven't heard that they have any problems with their HXs failing.
    If the HX fails, Rheem will replace the furnace (original owner).

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
    Posts
    798
    Quote Originally Posted by ampulman View Post
    If the HX fails, Rheem will replace the furnace (original owner).
    so does goodman/amana...that doesnt say anything about the operation....just the average span a homeowner stays in one spot lol

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