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  1. #1
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    Jun 2010
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    Philadelphia PA
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    How many of you agree with this article?

    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    354

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    i'll give you my take, i DON'T like the way these schools teach hvac.they spend too much time on bs, and the students get hung up on stuff that they shouldn't. the problem with this trade is they are expecting 1 guy to know too much. duct design and layout and manuel j/d,should be a separate trade. service should be another. a lot of times a school has mandates they have to teach. there's too much theory and not enough practical application.
    and as far as problems with duct, you can blame that on the builder, who sends out 12 bids and takes the lowest! if they had a code where as all new homes had to be loaded out by the architect,would be a start,you have the nec, they should have a national stardard for hvac,load calc,duct standards,etc.problem as i see it $.these schools should have internships where the students ride with install crew for a week. a service guy for a week, maybe a sheet metal shop for a week, and write reports on what they learned! the other thing is factory training is really lacking in a lot of the country, and a lot of times the training is ALL THEORY and no practical application. as far a ICP, i was at there training school when it was in leverne,tenneessee,10 miles south of nashville, before carrier took over, that was a great school, as far as this guy, i've been to some of there seminars,and all theory,no actual equipment, so a lot of guys leave the seminar with no knowledge. i can go on and on.

  3. #3
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    Jun 2010
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    Philadelphia PA
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    Hey THES

    I had the good fortune to bump into Phil Rains who is no longer with ICP. If the other Trainers were as good as he, then they had a great group of instructors. I agree there is lots to understand but I make a distinction between what you generally need to understand vs what you have to MASTER. But you're right you got to focus on one area at a time.


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  4. #4
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    Jul 2011
    Location
    Waxahachie TX/stuck in Santa Clara CA
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    53
    Not sure why you're posting here, rather than the pro forum? As an outsider...

    The HVAC field keeps getting more complex and the skills needed increases, meaning more/better training is required to enter the field.

    At some point, why would anyone want go through x number of years of training just be be the minimum wage grunt? Might as well be an engineer or doctor or whatever is "cool".

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
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    354

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    I had the good fortune to bump into Phil Rains who is no longer with ICP. If the other Trainers were as good as he, then they had a great group of instructors. I agree there is lots to understand but I make a distinction between what you generally need to understand vs what you have to MASTER. But you're right you got to focus on one area at a time.


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mike
    i was out in michigan for a buisness seminar, by ICP, it was taugh by a guy named john tudor,awesome class. i felt there school in tennessee was very good.

  6. #6
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    Jun 2010
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    Philadelphia PA
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    Because there are a lot of pro's who haven't been upgraded yet

    Quote Originally Posted by bluebinky View Post
    Not sure why you're posting here, rather than the pro forum? As an outsider...

    The HVAC field keeps getting more complex and the skills needed increases, meaning more/better training is required to enter the field.

    At some point, why would anyone want go through x number of years of training just be be the minimum wage grunt? Might as well be an engineer or doctor or whatever is "cool".
    And I would like to hear your thoughts about a topic near and dear to my heart

    ALSO HOPING TO GET SOME OF YOU INTERESTED IN GETTING INVOLVED AT YOUR LOCAL VO-TECHS. It gets a little lonely sometimes
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    713
    When I went to trade school. The instructor warned us, that if you ever get into installation and got good at it. That is where you would be stuck at. I sometimes wish I had more installation experience. But I have seen men that would make excellent techs. stuck in construction. They where not allowed to move on to service unless they quit and went to work somewhere else. It takes certain skills or maybe a knack to be a service tech. I have seen techs. that could ace a nate exam but could not figure out a low voltage short or how to find a restriction. The trade school gives basic knowledge of how its supposed to work. But as the article says technology is moving so fast. I have worked on three chillers all 1962 model Tranes. Thought I knew chillers. Then went to work for a company that works on some of the newer stuff. First one I got sent to was a Mcquay. Opened up the cover and had to set down with the manual to figure out where to start. I found it had a bad relay board but took three hours. Of course it was the relay that all the safeties tied into no customer to authorize a bypass so I had to leave the building hot. Good thing too, because following mourning the company authorized bypass. Next day a 100 ton screw compressor burnt up. and that unit was 10 years old. Newer units are all electronic. Just about every unit has its own control board nowadays and they change faster than the company trucks do. The point being there is no way to teach everything in a trade school when by the time they graduate what they know is obsolete.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Houston area
    Posts
    1,493
    I worked for both ICP and Carrier and taught classes for both. Lions and tigers and bears...OH NO! However, I taught mostly to other engineers.

    Over the decades, some of the for-profit HVAC trade schools I have seen are a joke. Some of the state run Jr. colleges I have seen are far better. Plus you get the added benefit actual credit hours that can transfer to other schools if you decide you want to go a little further.

    The bottom line, at least for me, is no institution is ever going to teach it all in any amount of time. That's what the school of hard knocks is for.
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
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    meoberry,

    It takes certain skills or maybe a knack to be a service tech.
    I have always thought that patience people make good service people and impatient people are meant for construction. Its a personality thing that leads you into one area or the other. Me< I didn't have a lot of patience in my younger days, so you know where I wound up staying

    But I take your point, Mike
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Philadelphia PA
    Posts
    2,198

    Hey Cooked

    That's what the school of hard knocks is for.
    Seem to always be working on my doctorate. Don't think it will ever end with a final white paper

    Noticed you used the past tense. with your background you are the kind of guy that needs to be helping at the local VoTechs. Not trying to put you on a guilt trip (Yes I am) You have got a lot to share!

    Mike
    You have got to learn from other people's mistakes! Because God knows you don't live long enough to make them all yourself !!!!!!!!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    713
    Quote Originally Posted by Cooked View Post
    I worked for both ICP and Carrier and taught classes for both. Lions and tigers and bears...OH NO! However, I taught mostly to other engineers.

    Over the decades, some of the for-profit HVAC trade schools I have seen are a joke. Some of the state run Jr. colleges I have seen are far better. Plus you get the added benefit actual credit hours that can transfer to other schools if you decide you want to go a little further.

    The bottom line, at least for me, is no institution is ever going to teach it all in any amount of time. That's what the school of hard knocks is for.
    Give them the basics. Everything else take alot of head scratching.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Litchfield,Il
    Posts
    565

    So much info in so little time.

    When I went through the speel on the exciting field of HVAC while sitting in class my senior year and when told what this trade can do for you financially you were ready to sign up if you were not planning on going to colleage. Money? That was the Vocational schools reps. main push on getting you to sign up.Then it was a maxium of two years to cram everything they could into your brain and then it was off into the real world.

    I think it should be broken down and gone through piece by piece. There is so much to learn about this field and a real HVAC trade school should be at least a 4 year endevour. Then you have the option to specialize in different parts of it making you a true master craftsman in that application.
    If your not getting the results you desire then change. People change from either desperation or inspiration.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Houston area
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    Quote Originally Posted by genduct View Post
    .......Noticed you used the past tense. with your background you are the kind of guy that needs to be helping at the local VoTechs. Not trying to put you on a guilt trip (Yes I am) You have got a lot to share!

    Mike
    I've thought long and hard about it. There is a jr. college a few miles from my house. I might even volunteer for free.
    The picture in my avatar is of the Houston Ship Channel and was taken from my backyard. I like to sit outside and slap mosquitos while watching countless supertankers, barges and cargo ships of every shape and size carry all sorts of deadly toxins to and fro. It's really beautiful at times.....just don't eat the three eyed fish....

    `. .` .>(((>

    `... `. .` .>(((>

    .` .>(((>

    LMAOSHMSFOAIDMT

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