Great news, and a heat pump question?

[yitzi]

Is a heat pump worth the money to add to my new system (in Cleveland Oh)?

For those who have been following my posts, you've noticed that I've been a sticky decision situation. I have a gas co. run program paying for a 90+ furnace, but single a stage generic like ducane or concord, and a contractor willing to work for cheap. And I was going to kick in the extra bucks for a/c, humidifier etc.

So, all along I've been deliberating dumping the programs dollars, biting the bullet and paying for my own quality system and install/er.

Well the good news is that it seems I may have been succesful in steering the guys that administer the program (who have actually been pretty nice folks) to go with a quality Trane contractor. (I probably would be just as pleased with Rheem/Ruud, Carrier/Bryant, or even Lennox, but as it stands, if things work out, I'm pretty happy).

Now this Trane dealer is really encouraging me to consider going with a heat pump rather than a regular condensor. It brings a $1800-2000 additional price tag, but he says it will pay for itself in 2-3 winters at most.

Is a heat pump worth it?...is this accurate?...doesn't it add wear and tear on the condesor and evap coil?...does it really heat so much more efficiently??? what's the heap pump hype/story? etc.

And please give me a small lesson about what the idea behind 2 stage is anyway? is it that the system will stay on longer at a slightly ramped down rate, in order to keep positive heat flow without becoming too hot and cycling off? Putting heating costs aside, (We're from Miami and we want to be warm) will single stage at 100% will give me more heating, or will a 2 stage? ...especially considering that if 2 stage is mostly only going to use stage 1 and only kick on stage 2 sometimes then wouldn't it be better to have it all on at 100% like in single stage??? (or did I already answer this for myself in the first half of this paragraph?).
thanks,
yitzi

[billva]

i need a drink.

[Jultzya]

Originally posted by billva
i need a drink.

Make that a double!

[smadave]

I live in NJ and Heat pumps arent too popular here. I've been in buisness for myself for 11 years now. I've installed as many heat pumps in the past month as I have in 11 years. It seems as though people are looking more to heat pumps as an alternative to expensive gas and oil systems. I have been installing the carrier infinity heat pumps and I am just blown away with the performance of these systems. If anyone is considering a heat pump, I would highly recommend looking at the carrier infinity system. You will be amazed at what it can do. Intalling them is so simple...just hook up four wires and it does the rest...amazing!!

Dave in NJ

[dave82323]

when you say you need a drink, does that include shots ? if so I am in and the first round is on me....

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by smadave
in business for myself for 11 years now. I've installed as many heat pumps in the past month as I have in 11 years.

Intalling them is so simple...just hook up four wires and it does the rest...amazing!! Dave in NJ

Do you have heat pump units where the refrigerant lines
'hook themselves up'?

[bornriding]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by yitzi
[B]Is a heat pump worth the money to add to my new system (in Cleveland Oh)?
"Now this Trane dealer is really encouraging me to consider going with a heat pump rather than a regular condensor. It brings a $1800-2000 additional price tag, but he says it will pay for itself in 2-3 winters at most."



Ask the dealer if he will quarantee that!!!!
Truely, don't expect that it will. 2000.00 divided by 7 months per year for three years = $95.00 per month savings.
Boy, you would have to have one large heating bill to save $95 every month.

"Is a heat pump worth it?...is this accurate?...doesn't it add wear and tear on the condesor and evap coil?...does it really heat so much more efficiently??? what's the heap pump hype/story? etc."


In my opinion, the heat pump will save money when the outside temp is above 35-40 degrees 'f'. Below that, it won't save much. It has more parts than an a/c unit - generally creating more repair bills and HP's generally won't last as long as an a/c unit.

This is MHO,
Richard

[yitzi]

Thanks Gents! And drinks are "after" the lesson,(I've got Beefeater, Bacardi, and Jack).

A follow up ques, if I may...My house is currently 1600-1700sf, counting floors 1 & 2 only, I intend to finish the basement, walk-in attice (big enough for 2 avg bdrms) and the screened porch, which will bring the total sf to as much as about 3000sf. The Trane man says that Trane doesn't make a 90k/btu only 80 and 100. He wants to put in the 80 and insists it will not only do the job, but even after all the additions (whenever they come) the 80 will still the better choice.

Is he right or wrong? (do I insist on the 100?) (and what's up with Trane not makeing a 90?)
thanks,
yitzi

[amickracing]

Trane only makes furnaces with 20k btu differences (40, 60, 80, 100, 120). No need for going into 10k btu jumps. Heck a lot of companies go in 25k btu difference.

I would agree with what he said if he did a Manual J load calculation. If he didn't and is just basing this off of the rule of thumb, then he's wrong.

[kbice]

yitzi,

Just installed a 12 seer kelvinator with txv in a 1800 sf ranch with a basement approx same size. I have been very happy with it so far. I am located in canton, OH we will see how it works when the temps really start dropping. It is a dual fuel set up with a 2 stage HE heil furnance controlled by a honeywell visionpro 8321. This is my first HP, had geo thermal in little rock ark. I was not very happy with the geo thermal, believe it was poor installation of the ground loop.

[smokin68]

Is a heat pump worth it?...is this accurate?...doesn't it add wear and tear on the condesor and evap coil?...does it really heat so much more efficiently??? what's the heap pump hype/story? etc.

And please give me a small lesson about what the idea behind 2 stage is anyway? is it that the system will stay on longer at a slightly ramped down rate, in order to keep positive heat flow without becoming too hot and cycling off? Putting heating costs aside, (We're from Miami and we want to be warm) will single stage at 100% will give me more heating, or will a 2 stage? ...especially considering that if 2 stage is mostly only going to use stage 1 and only kick on stage 2 sometimes then wouldn't it be better to have it all on at 100% like in single stage??? (or did I already answer this for myself in the first half of this paragraph?).


GLUG GLUG GLUG........

Yes a heatpump is very efficient. The heat is much COOLER to the touch than a gas furnace( about 100 degrees out of your vents), which can take some getting used to.If you're from Miami you shouldn't have to look far to find a heatpump, and if you want it hot when it's freezing go with a gas furnace. BURPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP!

[dash]

Originally posted by dan sw fl

Originally posted by smadave
in business for myself for 11 years now. I've installed as many heat pumps in the past month as I have in 11 years.

Intalling them is so simple...just hook up four wires and it does the rest...amazing!! Dave in NJ

Do you have heat pump units where the refrigerant lines
'hook themselves up'?

That's a secret,not until 2006 and then it's just one line not lines.LOL!

[yitzi]

amickracing;

He did not do a manual j (no surprise there, of all five, or was it six, contractors who came out, none did more than a few sq ft measurments, i.e. no windows/doors), but he did not rule of thumb it either.

He says in his 25+ years installing hvac in this area (Cleveland) he's installed precious few 100k/btu's (or above). He feels that it is almost always overkill for these houses and that the competition are the ones doing a disservice by oversizing. He even says he's willing to guarentee maintenence of temp, but then what are those type of guarentees worth, can you really fight for it. However, he has a perfect score with the better business beuruo, and zero complaints filed.

To recap:
My current sq ft is 1600-1700, but after all is said and done (with basement finished, attic, screen porch, etc) I should be right about 3000sq ft.

On the chance that 100k/btu might be too much...with a 2 stage and variable speed system, wouldn't the system almost naturally prevent "oversize" issues? or...the 80k???

(by the way t-stat being used here to be Aprilaire's 8570)

[yitzi]

We sign contract tomorrow morning (thursday morning).

So...

Any last minute input on the 80k vs 100k?

thanks,
yitzi
(I'll check for the latest posts b4 the meeting tomorrow)

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by yitzi
To recap: My current sq ft is 1600-1700, but after all is said and done (with basement finished, attic, screen porch, etc) I should be right about 3000 sq ft.

On the chance that 100k/btu might be too much...with a 2 stage and variable speed system, wouldn't the system almost naturally prevent "oversize" issues? or...the 80k???

You'll need > 100 K
to heat "SCREEN porch, etc." !

[yitzi]

Dan;
The screen porch will be closed in and insulated, and have viny/low-e/argon windows - along with the rest of the windows
yitzi

[wyounger]

There's no point in having a two stage furnace if you never use the second stage, and that's what you get with an oversized two stage furnace.

As long as he'll stand behind his work, take the smaller one. He's right in that there is an overwhelming tendency to oversize them.

[yitzi]

wyounger;
That sounds like and excellent point. And, oversizing is real common and is a bad idea, agreed.
But, in my situation is 80k/btu really going to be enough if/when I get up to 3000 sq ft??

[wyounger]

We can't really tell from here. It's certainly possible, but it depends on the structure. Square footage is just one factor.

All you can really do is a load calculation on some hypothetical future addition plans, or trust your contractor. Anything you add on is going to be more energy efficient than the older parts of the building, so they won't need a proportional amount of heat.

What is the age/size/efficiency of the furnace you're replacing? You have to keep in mind if you're replacing something old and inefficient that these BTU capacities are inputs; a 93% efficient 80k BTU furnace puts out 74.4k BTU- there's not much difference between the input and the output. If you're replacing a 70% efficient old beast with a 100k BTU input (70k output), the new furnace may actually put out *more* heat than the old one. So it's typically good practice when you're doing a furnace replacement to drop a size on input capacity, because every generation gets more heat out of the fuel than the last generation.

The other concern is that 100k is WAY too much furnace for the current size of the house, unless you like to keep the windows wide open all through the winter. It's asking an awful lot to have a single system that can handle doubling the square footage at some point down the road. I'd suggest not trying to put so much excess capacity in. When you do the addition, if it turns out that what you've got isn't quite enough for an addition down the road (certainly get a load calculation done based on the plans before you start construction), some portion of the addition may be better off with a separate system anyway (master bedroom, sun room, etc.). You'll get more even temperature control and the bonus of zoned temperature control, so you can avoid heating spaces when they aren't in use.

[Edited by wyounger on 11-10-2005 at 05:25 PM]

[yitzi]

wyounger;
Your thinking sounds real solid, I like it, you've got me getting a better feeling about the 80k (why can't they just make 'em at 10k jumps and not 20k?!). Install happens monday/tuesday.
thanks much,
yitzi