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  1. #66
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    And, if they had to "PAY" for the load calcs that would stop a lot of tire kickers, not all but a lot.
    Actually, before NY started paying for audits, I sold them for $350 a pop. I don't mind going to the house once for free, getting a quick blower door, look under the hood and at the energy history. Not giving away any design, just a little building science education and a request for their partnership to take their crappy house to nice.

    No? Thanks, nice to meet you. If you decide you'd rather not send your money to the energy company and put it into improvements, give me a ring.

    A lot of people really liked learning about their homes, and taking a more thoughtful design oriented approach rather than diving right into a big 15 year commitment.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  2. #67
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,881

    Thumbs up

    Tedkidd; your posts are terrific...

    Audits are very important to have performed before installing new equipment!

    Problem is I know some that do the 15 to 20-year equipment investment, then after it's installed, they talk about having a Home Audit performed.

    There is a proper sequence for this process; the Home Audit, the Retrofit work, then Manual's J, S, D, XYZ, & so-forth...

  3. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    354

    Hmm

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Actually, before NY started paying for audits, I sold them for $350 a pop. I don't mind going to the house once for free, getting a quick blower door, look under the hood and at the energy history. Not giving away any design, just a little building science education and a request for their partnership to take their crappy house to nice.

    No? Thanks, nice to meet you. If you decide you'd rather not send your money to the energy company and put it into improvements, give me a ring.

    A lot of people really liked learning about their homes, and taking a more thoughtful design oriented approach rather than diving right into a big 15 year commitment.
    i've seen those commercials on t.v does the state actually pay for the energy audit?

  4. #69
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,700
    Yep, they pay me $250-$400.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  5. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Littleton, Co
    Posts
    54
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Adam, that doesn't sound even close. for 4 ton you need bottom side or side side (two return drops).
    The existing drop is on one side of the furnace and the water heater is on the other side. The only way I could see to do it would be to add returns through the crawlspace and up from the bottom.



    Adam

  6. #71
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    354

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    Yep, they pay me $250-$400.
    great, one more question, is eastman kodak going to stay in buisness, that town used to live off kodak!

  7. #72
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    195

    MR BILL! Don't Give Up. Lets build you a new toy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    I even go a step farther, I personally think any LC's period/home energy audits, should become a trade withing itself. Most of of old guys started out running service and installations that was enough, now like me most of us older folks are probably just running service and have install crews. I don't know about the larger companies, maybe they have folks on the payrolls that can do all this sealing the envelope stuff, but I need all my help I have on the front lines, not performing LC's. I personally believe it would benefit the whole trade to take the responsibility and liability off the backs of the a/c and heating service companies, then we could concentrate on our job we were born into to perform, not doing something we had forced upon us. This would be so easy, Mr. Jones we would love to set you up with a new system, let me give you the number of a professionally "qualified" company that can perform an LC and energy audit on your home and when there finished we can fix you up, takes the liability of sizing correctly off our backs. Let me tell you, I would rather have my wisdom teeth pulled, than go through the anguish of wondering if the system we installed in "Houston" if going to be the correct size according to the LC performed, do we really need this added burden on us? I have enough on my plate just keeping up with my everyday calls.

    Hey Mr. Bill,

    You are in ground zero for the worst case scenario; tract houses, sht duct work, low costs no rules, and sophisticated utility owned contractor competition.

    I feel your pain, but lets not give up.
    Lets look at your time frame issue first.

    Lets build you a toy to do these calculations instantly while on the phone when you first meet a new potential client. Three Steps.

    Take out your load calc software (makes no difference if its Wrightsoft, Elite, or Happy Harry’s Heat load program)

    Take a typical house you have done load on, know the specs and you are happy with. For example, lets say a 2400 sq ft house in Katy built in 2004.

    Understand, 98% of houses follow certain proportional relationships. The most important of these is that %14.5 of sq feet will give you an estimate of glass area within %2.5. You will see quickly about ½ of the glass is on one side (usually the back) with the majority of the rest on the opposite side.

    5-10 Minute instant block load, and Customer Interview from anywhere

    Step 1.
    When a customer calls you bring their address up on www.zillow.com. You will learn quite a bit. Ask them if the square footage is correct? (some folks have finished a garage into a playroom or added an addition and forgot to tell the tax guy.) Ask them if they have upgraded insulation, windows, ductwork, etc, or made any other changes of significance.

    The point is, while on the phone confirm or edit your assumptions for a house of this vintage.

    Very Important: This quick interview also lets you “size up” the
    customer. Are they a buyer, a shopper, or just lonely.

    20331 Laurel Lock Dr Katy, TX 77450

    Bedrooms: 4
    Bathrooms: 3
    Sqft: 2,867
    Lot size: 8,584 sq ft / 0.20 acres
    Property type: Single Family
    Year built: 1979
    Parking type: --
    Cooling system: Central
    Heating system:
    Fireplace: Yes
    Days on Zillow: 98
    Last sold: July 14 1997
    MLS number: 30644824
    Listing website: Prudential Gary Gree...
    Description
    Great Nottingham Country home features wonderful floorplan w 4 bedrooms, 2 full & 2 half baths, full 3 car garage and screened in porch. Updated kitchen features granite counters, tile backsplash, gas range. Master suite downstairs. Large gameroom, 3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths upstairs. Roof replaced Nov.…

    Step 2.
    Bring up the house on GOOGLE Maps.
    20331 Laurel Lock Dr Katy, TX 77450

    http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=ll

    Now we can see our “worst case glass” faces South East.
    Hint: Tell them something they know already. “Boy, you must have quite a
    Bit of cooling load around 11-12 O-clock through all that glass out by your pool!”

    Step 3
    Bring up your template house, rotate it so worst case glass faces South East, Adjust your sq/ ft to 2867, and sq ft of glass so it is 14.5% of 2867 (upward in this example) to 415 keeping the same proportions SE,NW, etc. You made want to shade the worst case glass by some percent (if that screed in porch is facing the pool for instance).

    You can you use your software's global update functions to change your template house to reflect houses of different “vintages”

    With this system you can do loads calcs as “accurately” from your office,
    House, or local tap room in 5-10 minutes on the phone with the customer as you can sitting in their kitchen. You also sort out the losers and save your time sitting in the traffic jam on the Katy Freeway. If you decide to go see the customer, simply reload the file you created while on the phone, update and edit your assumptions and produce your load and proposal in minutes.

    You will probably get so good and fast at this you will be able to drive your truck down the SAM Houston Tollway, watching your GPS, Talking to the customer on the phone, have Charlie Daniel’s Band on the radio, driving with your knee, doing the load cacl on your IPAD, holding a long neck bud, and sparkin a lefty.

    Be Carful,

    ACBD

  8. #73
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,700
    If only we could type in annual energy consumption and current appliance energy efficiency as a check/TRUE up to the software load assumptions, asking thermostat habits of course.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  9. #74
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Moore, Oklahoma, United States
    Posts
    4,156
    Quote Originally Posted by tedkidd View Post
    If only we could type in annual energy consumption and current appliance energy efficiency as a check/TRUE up to the software load assumptions, asking thermostat habits of course.
    Is there a way to "reverse engineer" the heating/cooling loads based on the utility bills?

  10. #75
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    GA
    Posts
    16

    Hmmm rule of thumb???

    Heat moves from a warmer substance to a cooler one.... How fast?

  11. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,290
    Quote Originally Posted by jl_cool View Post
    Heat moves from a warmer substance to a cooler one.... How fast?
    Depends on the difference in temperature between the two substances.
    • Electricity makes refrigeration happen.
    • Refrigeration makes the HVAC psychrometric process happen.
    • HVAC pyschrometrics is what makes indoor human comfort happen...IF the ducts AND the building envelope cooperate.


    A building is NOT beautiful unless it is also comfortable.

  12. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jurupa Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,655

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by jl_cool View Post
    Heat moves from a warmer substance to a cooler one.... How fast?
    h

  13. #78
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,881

    Lightbulb

    [QUOTE=54regcab;10905272]Is there a way to "reverse engineer" the heating/cooling loads based on the utility bills?[/QUOTE]
    Excellent Question 54.

    Based on BTUH's Used, Not on utility bills; Yes, there is a way to do that modeling of all the weather stats, including wind velocities & directions, for a particular heating & cooling year, or even a specific time period, along with a consistent thermostat temp setting.

    That is where a blower door check is very helpful; plus the delivered performance of the heating & cooling equipment must be known. When it comes to the narrow sizing of equipment, Modeling can easily be off in varying degrees, as is true elsewhere in our field.

    All one's household related habits would need to be uniformly consistent.
    Some of these methodologies are being using with varying degrees of success.

    Nothing is perfect because it is impossible to achieve perfect modeling of all the variable conditions, however, it can be & is being used by Home energy efficiency auditors.

    We use Degree Days & a lot of other weather modeling that you can access over the Internet.

    Tedkidd, tipsrfine, beenthere, AC Bad Dog, & many others can add a lot to what I've tried to say at 5 AM; - as I have to do some recording & writing on the critical importance of the private sector effectively using its 2 Trillion$ primarily in the Energy Sector to create a pathway toward economic recovery before interest rates go way up, & the economy tanks for years & therefore, the budget & national debt bury us! There are some ways that may soon be gone...
    Last edited by udarrell; 07-31-2011 at 06:33 AM. Reason: AC Bad Dog...

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