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Thread: geothermal

  1. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Piedmont Triad area of North Carolina

    You raise some good points that I will attempt to address.

    If the DX ground loops are installed correctly, they are not in contact with dirt! All of my loop installations [pit and trench systems] are encased in screenings [crushed granite]. Vertical and diagonal loops are grouted with a thermal conductive grout. In the cooling mode, heat rejected into the Earth can cause the dirt to dry and separate from the loop leaving a void resulting in poor heat transfer. The screenings will not dry and separate from the loops resulting in better heat transfer. The additional mass also aids in the transfer process.

    You are correct in stating that plastic pipe has a poor energy transfer rate. This is why water source systems require 4-5 times more loop length than DX. Longer loops require more loop field and excavating resulting in higher install costs. As far as localized freezing and heating of the Earth, it has the same effect on water source systems as it does on DX with the exception of open loop systems. But with open-loop systems, you have higher pumping costs, the water had to be filtered and treated in some cases, plus you have to dump it in an unobjectionable area.

    As for loop life, I know that most plastic loops carry a 50-year warranty. However, I can not tell you how many I know of that are leaking and require continuo maintenance. Some even have water-feeding attachments on them to keep the system full of water. This leads to the transfer solution being diluted causing premature corrosion of the heat exchanger. As for the copper loops, copper is a noble metal that comes from the Earth and is the oldest metal used by man. A pH test must be performed on the soil to determine its acidity level before the system can be installed. A pH between 5.5-11.0 requires no protection, as this will not harm the copper. If it is outside this range, a cathodic protection system will protect the copper from corrosion. I have had to abandon many water loops due to leakage, but I know of only one DX system that had a loop failure. With better than a 30 year track record, I believe that speaks for itself.

    As for efficiencies, I believe this to be correct. The compressors in these systems are not under anymore load than a typical system [air or water source]. The loops have been engineered with this in mind. If there were such a load on the compressor, the efficiency would drop off.

    What I have a problem with is how water source manufacturers are deceiving consumers by advertising super high EER numbers. As you are aware, this is achieved by 2 speed systems and the rating is for low speed. But most consumers do not know this. When you look at the EER numbers at full capacity, they are at or below that of DX systems. Second, water source systems typically have a major drop off in heating capacity. For example, Waterfurnace's "Premier E Series Dual Capacity" 5 Ton heat pump [E060] has a cooling capacity of 60,000 Btuh and only 41,800 Btuh heating capacity. The EER is 17.0 and the COP is 3.9. That equates to 3.5 Tons of heating capacity from a 5-Ton system. American Geothermal's 5-Ton system has a heating capacity of 61,000 Btuh with a COP of 3.7. The cooling capacity is 64,000 Btuh with an EER of 16.6. This gives the Amgeo DX system 32% more heating capacity than this comparable unit. Check it out for yourself, this is directly from ARI's website.

    As for DX falling off, it is all I install in terms of geothermal and I install several each year.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    NE PA

    Thanks for the reply.

    The units I have installed (Climatemaster) can maintain near full capacity in heating mode. It is, of course, a function of the water loop temperature. A 3 ton will be at 33,000 BTU with a 50 deg water on a single speed system, and a COP of 3.99. As the water temp drops, the capacity and COP will go down.

    Likewise on a DX system, as the exchange area cools, due to the heat extraction and heatflow of the ground, the capacity and COP will drop as well.

    I believe a well designed system of either technology will perform equally. The DX has the edge on install cost, and maybe a bit on efficiency (no circulator).

    As for DX falling off, there are very few mfgs today offering DX. What does that tell you ?


  3. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Piedmont Triad area of North Carolina
    As for DX falling off, there are very few mfgs today offering DX. What does that tell you?

    Old dogs don't want to learn new tricks?! LOL

    DX requires more work in installing the loop field since all the loops have to be brazed in while being nitrogen flowed. Allot of companies and technicians do not want to take the time to follow this step which leads to trouble. With plastic loops, you fuse the lines together and screw them to the unit...somewhat simple. That is the only draw back I have found. The pits and trenches have to be level since oil is circulating through the system. Water loops are not affected by this. Plus, water can be pumped much farther with out and problem as long as it is designed accordingly.

    I agree whole-heartedly. A geothermal system of either type is preferable to air source systems in most cases.

    What model of Climate Master are you installing? Open or closed loops?

    Thanks Paul.


    [Edited by dakers on 11-02-2005 at 07:39 AM]

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