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Thread: Confused in KC

  1. #14
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Rapid City, SD
    Posts
    7,415
    A normal motor is as likely to fail as a variable speed motor. As much as I hate to stay it, no matter what you get (cheap or spendy) it can and sometimes does break down.

    Get the variable speed, no seconds thoughts. Saves energy, quieter, typically better air flow (especially when going into older ducts that might not be sized exactly right), and the big thing.... lots more comfort.

    Shutting a heat pump off at 35 deg is a waste of a heat pump. They can run well below zero. The point when you turn it off is determined by the BTU output of the heat pump, and the heat loss of your house. The better it's insulated, newer windows, not leaving doors open etc, the lower the heat pump can run and keep your house warm.

    I would reccomend going with the highest seer heat pump and most efficient furnace you can afford. It'd be real nice to put in an 18 SEER heat pump and 90% furnace, but you don't need to get that carried away either (unless the budget allows). Get a good 90% furnace, 14 SEER heat pump, nice thermostat (vision pro 8000 comes to mind), variable speed blower and you'll be set up nicely. Oh, also check into a good filter system, make sure they have a filter thats plenty big for the size unit they are installing (maybe put in a 5" filter).

    I do have to agree with him about the discharge temps. They can be a bit cool compared to a gas furnace. But with the variable speed it should be able to run at a speed so it's not creating a wind tunnel in your house, so with the slower air speeds that will occurr some of the time it'll still feel like toasty warm air.

    Since I don't know that guy I can't really comment for sure, so take this for what it's worth. But if you talk to guys who don't know heat pumps or don't like them, they give reasons exactly like that so they don't have to install them. With rates in your area a good salesman wouldn't sell you anything but a heat pump.

    [Edited by amickracing on 10-21-2005 at 11:30 PM]

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    96
    Thanks.........I'm back on track to getting exactly what all you guys have recommended. I asked this guy how many heat pumps he has installed and he told me less than 6. Your comment seems to point that this guy does not have the necessary experience in installing heat pumps. I think I will go to the higher bid that was trying to convince me to go with the heat pump. Its back to the comment I have read in other threads. Lowest cost is not always the right answer when selecting a contractor.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Tyler TX
    Posts
    676
    I have met a few people who don't like heat pumps because of what the other contractor was saying. Personally I love them and if you can go with the 2 stage systems. Personally when installing a duel fuel system I install 80% furnaces with vaiable speed when the budget allows for it. A 90%+ furnace would be a plus but I have difficulty believing you would ever see a return to justify it.

    As for equipment I prefer lennox and trane myself. I'm installing an 18.6 SEER lennox heat pump with electric back up heat in my home.
    HVAC Contractor, Tyler Texas.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    96
    I'm going to contact my contractor to see if its possible to go all electric given my existing electrical service. The only benefit I see by staying with the gas back up is the ability to switch to gas heat in the event electric rates shot up but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Our winters are a bit more harsh than yours but I guess electric heat would be ok. Any downside to electric heat over gas????

    I am also looking at the high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Thumbs up Heat Pump & Equipment Selection

    Originally posted by ksspartan
    Any downside to electric heat over gas????

    .. high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?
    HOME COMFORT:

    TRANE ... 9 more days
    to Sign a contract for $1000 rebate on highest efficiency

    http://www.trane.com/Residential/Pro...mps/XL19i.aspx

    http://www.trane.com/Residential/Pro...mps/XL16i.aspx

    http://www.trane.com/Residential/News/Rebate.aspx

    T-stat
    http://www.trane.com/residential/Pro...grammable.aspx

    http://www.trane.com/Residential/Pro...ableSpeed.aspx

    5" media filter

    Buy larger than you need (with 2-STAGE XL16i) just for cooling to address Winter heating a little better.

    TRANE XL16i heat pump at 17'F provides 2.76 x more heat
    (C.O.P. Coefficient of Performance = 2.76)
    than straight electric.

    4TWX6060 with 4TEE 3F065 ( 5-ton)
    54,000 BTUh at 47'F COP 3.72
    42,336 BTUh at 35'F COP 3.02
    36,600 BTUh at 17'F COP 2.76

    4TWX6048 with 4TEE 3F049 ( 4-ton)
    43,000 BTUh at 47'F COP 3.72
    33,156 BTUh at 35'F COP 3.02
    27,600 BTUh at 17'F COP 2.76

    LENNOX provides comparable equipment.

    K.C. electric rates ARE GREAT !
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    96
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, if I presently have a 3.5 ton AC unit I should slightly oversize the HP to say 4 ton to increase my COP? How about the auxiliary heat? Electric or gas????

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    44
    Well I live in Shawnee, Kansas (a suburb of K.C.) I had my Heat pump system installed by a friend of mine that does commercial heating and cooling here in town. It's a Lennox single stage 4 ton heat pump with a 92% furnance back up. And yes, he over-sized it by a 1/2 ton, you might remember some of my posts regarding short cycling earlier this year. Wasn't really short cycling in some peoples opinion but solved it to my satisfaction by installing a thermostat with adjustable differential. Heat pumps are the only way to go with our electric rates that KCP&L offer with the electric heat discount. He was saying when we originaly installed it this spring that we would set the the heat pump to run to about 26 to 30 degrees, then switch over to gas. I was talking to him just this week and he says that with the new gas prices we should of installed an electric back-up instead of gas, but that could always change. His recomendation now is to run the heat pump to about 0 degrees, but we'll have to see where it stops keeping up heating the house versus the outside temp. Now my inlaws system failed on them this summer in the heat, and they also talked to their company about heat pumps on my recomendation. Guess what they heard? Heat pumps tend to break down more, people don't like the cooler tempeture of the air and we end up taking them out, they're not really suited for our cold winters. Made it sound like they were the worst thing out there. It'll be interesting to compare utility bills with them this winter as we both have very similar sized houses and units. I had a Lennox HP26 and G51MP furnance installed, I wanted a two stage, but my friend said that this combination was pretty much "bullet proof" and he isn't always available for service calls. So if you're going the normal route, consider a two stage HP, but find a contractor that is recomending Heat pumps, especially with the new gas prices.

    [Edited by lyork on 10-22-2005 at 09:26 AM]

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Thumbs up Specific unit ?

    Originally posted by ksspartan
    So if I'm understanding you correctly, if I presently have a 3.5 ton AC unit I should slightly oversize the HP to say 4 ton to increase my COP? How about the auxiliary heat? Electric or gas????
    Review of Floor plan with window schedule would be necessary to recommend a Specific unit. Contact info is provided in my credentials.

    However, 4-ton XL16i 'seems to be' VERY Good selection for BOTH summer and winter. I may suggest even suggest a 5-ton XL19i depending on heating requirement at 15' to 25'F
    in order to minimize USE of Aux heat.

    15 kW ( 51,000 BTUh) Electric heat strip would likely be selected.

    I believe that 5-ton XL16i using 1st stage would be slightly more cooling than the current 3.5-Ton. I am not sure if a whole-house dehumidifier (AprilAire model 1700) would be appropriate for K.C., I doubt it.

    I would NOT even remotely consider gas given $0.04/kW and a higher efficient heat pump.

    YOU are in a GREAT Situation to minimize your annual energy bill.
    AND YOU are INELLIGENT
    enough to elminate any earlier confusion.

    [Edited by dan sw fl on 10-22-2005 at 09:41 AM]
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    96
    Thanks Dan. I am also a HVAC Design Engineer but from a commercial side so this residential side is a bit new to me. Do you see any concern of putting my eggs all in one basket with the electric utility? With aux gas I have the choice?

    I think I see what your doing by oversizing the heat pump by getting the advantage of the extra heating capacity and planning on only using the 1st stage of the heat pump in the cooling season. What do you need from me to figure the heat load between 15' and 25'. Wall areas, window orientation, and orientation of each?


  10. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Thumbs up Design Details

    Originally posted by ksspartan
    Do you see any concern of putting my eggs all in one basket with the electric utility?

    ... I see what your doing by oversizing the heat pump by getting the advantage of the extra heating capacity and planning on only using the 1st stage of the heat pump in the cooling season.
    Wall areas, window orientation, and orientation of each?

    Electricity is normally available 99.5% of the time.
    Emergency you may wish to use a kerosene heater although,
    I would not use one myself for more than a few hours.

    Furnace can not be run without electricity, so I don't see any advantage with gas. I would expect margins between electric and gas rates to increase in the next several years. In other words, I anticipate gas will get MORE Expensive relative to electricity.

    Who knows .. 10 years from now?


    Overall dimensions
    ___ ' x ___ '
    2000 Sq Feet Total

    __ # of rooms ________ Windows [quantity]
    1. Family 12 x 16' 3'x 5' [2 ]
    2. Kitchen 10 x 12' ___________
    3. Dining 10 x 10' ___________
    4. Master Bath 8 x 11' ___________
    5. Master bedrooom 12 x 15' ______
    6. Second Bedroom 11 x 11' ______
    7. Bath 2 6 x 8'
    8. Third bedroom __ x __'
    9. Den _____________x __ '
    10. Laundry 6 x 10' ___________
    11. Pantry 4 x 6
    12. Garage 20 x 20

    Adjust above as appropriate

    # of windows on each side
    ( U-value & SHGC is provided sometimes. Otherwise, I can base u-value on age of house and MFG.)

    R-11 walls
    R-30 ceiling would be a simple start.

    You can e-mail me so I can return a generic floor layout via PDF which is viewable with Adobe Reader.
    .. or 'sketch' can also be sent via WORD document

    Comment on the drawing to be provided and I can update.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Rapid City, SD
    Posts
    7,415
    This is an old house I'm guessing, not a new one you're just building?

    About the eggs in a basket.... I wouldn't worry too much. If it's an old house you already have the gas line run through the house. So worst case... 15-20 years from now when gas is dirt cheap compared to electric (if it ever happens) you'll just have to change the equipment back to gas, but by that time you might need new equipment anyway.

    I'm all electric now, but hoping to install a heat pump sometime soon when I start remodeling. I'm also going to run gas line through the house when it's torn apart. I don't plan on ever using it, but it's there just in case, and it might help sell the house.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    96
    I see by your credentials that your in Rapid City. Is that SD. If you can go all electric there I can sure do it here. It is an existing house and you make a good point that 15 years from now I can always go back to a gas furnace if electric gets out of sight. Is there any disadvantages to electric heat? I have always had gas heat which I guess I'm just used to. I'm also assuming my 200 amp panel is large enough to carry the additional electrical heating load. Will the heat pump and electric heat work in conjunction with one another? Its only a 2000 square foot ranch home so I should be ok according to Wyounger.

    Dan.....I will work on my measurements and get them to you so you can help me figure my loads.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Tyler TX
    Posts
    676
    Originally posted by ksspartan
    I'm going to contact my contractor to see if its possible to go all electric given my existing electrical service. The only benefit I see by staying with the gas back up is the ability to switch to gas heat in the event electric rates shot up but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Our winters are a bit more harsh than yours but I guess electric heat would be ok. Any downside to electric heat over gas????

    I am also looking at the high efficiency Lennox heat pump. Which thermostat are you going to use with your system using electric heat?
    I'm going with heat strips due to the cost of propane in my area, it cost more to use than electric. Don't really see much up or down for either so long as the meet you needs.

    I'm still deciding which which zone control i'm going to use. I'm probably going to go with a 4 zone controller and put simple digital stats in each area.


    One more thing to think about is your filtering system. I'm puting in a photocatalyst system. My primary reason is for removing the smoke odors. This will be the first one I'm installing so I cannot really say how well it works yet.The website to the one I'm getting is http://www.genesisair.com/index1.html
    HVAC Contractor, Tyler Texas.

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