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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Bemidji, Mn
    Posts
    3,573
    Looks pretty good, like other I noticed the return right away. A simple fix to relieve the static pressure is cut a 16x20 or whatever size grill you can fit into that return. Yeah yeah not good for a/c but it will help the static pressure...


    You picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel...

    http://rapalaguy.spaces.live.com/

  2. #54
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    35
    What are the long and short term consequences of having a return of the size I do?


  3. #55
    Originally posted by ductguy007
    P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?
    Are you familiar with ICP products?

    If not, the furnace trap is inside the unit. It mounts to the sheet metal plate that the blower hangs from. You can see the "black hose" coming out of the right side of the furnace and into the condensate pump.



    The only time the trap is external on the new "B-series" is when the unit is being used in either a horizontal or counter-flow position.

  4. #56
    Originally posted by jclancy
    What are the long and short term consequences of having a return of the size I do?
    High temperature rise, bad for heat exchanger and for other parts that operate outside of their specifications. Poor efficiency.

    High Static Pressure, bad for blower motor and blower wheel.

    High Temp Cycling, bad for efficiency and shortens equipments life span.

    Overall, you are going to have a problematic unit that ends up costing you money in operating cost, repair costs, and the costs of your personal frustration EVERY time the unit has a problem.

    Etc, etc,.....

    It needs to be ADDRESSED!

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rochester, MN
    Posts
    5,305
    I agree with Jultz of what he listed.. Also, may hear the air rush going down the small ductwork.


    If the heat exchanger fails, more likely the warranity will NOT cover it.

  6. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Gaylord, Michigan
    Posts
    729
    Originally posted by ductguy007
    Chris:Take A close look at that photo,it looks like the new flues are installed in a !L! shaped corner,not A straight wall. Im sure that the Heil guide says its Ok---Just like G.M says to use there 5w-30 ONLY in my new Suburban. I checked out your web- nice. You know probably better than anyone, that things are not aways Black and White in the HVAC world.
    I have alot of MXA's and MVP's under my belt. Love the 90%ers. Infilteration can be a killer -If i back a car in that corner on a cold Winter morning- go inside and take a reading.
    Also Who is to say that the Homeower wont sell in 2-3yrs and the new owner has no clue as the old single pain deteriorates -----Just A Thought------
    P.S Istill donot see were the condansate flue trap is?
    That is exactly what I was saying with the last line of my post. That it looked like a inside corner. Possible recirculation of flue gases. Wind currents can get strange in those areas. Also could increase the possiblilty of ice forming on the intake, causing a blocked vent, or partially blocked causing a nuisance.


  7. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Fair Oaks Califorina
    Posts
    92
    Attn:Jc lancy After spending more time reviewing your photos,i can clearly see the little black hose coming from the condensing flue into the pump,before, I just looked at the side shot were it was hiding behind the 3/4" pvc.
    About your flues:If you are comfortable with were they are located GRrrreat!.It's your castle not mine. There is just things that I would have done differant,like
    .Precast- 3"Insolated slab under the Furnace-get that blower off the concrete.
    .Put rubber foam tape around the PVC flue pipe were it is strapped ,Two reasons 1. Flues vibrate-sharp duct strap acts like a razor knife. 2.Vibration noise thru the floor joice.
    .Make sure that the PVC flues are not touching gas lines,metal ducts.ect------again with the vibrating noise.
    .More R\A. It's clear to see that the R\a is the original heat only duct,than years later someone added A\C and a evap coil. Yours is to small.
    .Separate the low voltage/water lines/high voltage,from each other,no wire tyes.
    .Put low voltage in 2"x 4" box.
    .Get the plastic condensate pump off the ground.
    .Again with the flues.I would have gone with a concentric kit thru the roof.

    again this is just one HVAC guy's opinion. Good luck with your new system.
    Ductguy oo7 the non-speller.



  8. #60
    If you're going to take a wait-and-see approach to the issue of the vent/flue pipes it is imperative that you have working Carbon Monoxide detectors in your house.

  9. #61
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    35
    AN UPDATE

    My contractor came back this weekend as promised to put a lining in the chimney for the hot water heater. All seemed to go fine....glad you all convinced me to do that.

    I had all of the pages of this thread printed and wanted to talk to him about the issue of my return being too small, which about a dozen of you mentioned. I didn't want to do it in an accusing way, as it wasn't included in the bid anyway, but more of a "should we really do this?" way.

    His response was basically that yes, the return is on the small side, but so are the original trunks and supplies. He said that in his opinion, a larger return isn't going to accomplish anything if we also don't make the vent supplies larger....he said that, as pretty much every contractor said, the ductwork in this house was fine for the heating systems they put in in 1969, but nothing today would be built with ductwork this small. Short of replacing all the ductwork to accomodate the larger flow of air from a larger return, he didn't see the point in putting a larger return on. He told me that he lives in basically the same house as mine (one developer built most of this side of town in the late 60s), had the same old Bryant furnace as mine, put the same furnace as my Heil in, and he's using the exact same return and supplies as I have. Not being a professional myself, his reasoning didn't seem to be bad to me....if my ductwork can only support X going through it, what does a larger return do for the furnace? Isn't there sort of a logjam at the delivery end?

    He was fine about discussing the topic, saying, "If you'd like me to do it, I'll be happy to, but you're not going to see any difference." I asked if having the smaller return is hurting the furnace, and he said no. He didn't read through all 20+ pages of your printed posts, but he flipped through and read the ones I circled.

    He said he'd work through the CFM capacity on my ducts and call me back to let me know what they are (I'm not clear what I'm supposed to do with that information once I have it) and to find out if I really want to put a larger return on.

    Thoughts?

    [Edited by jclancy on 10-23-2005 at 11:21 PM]

  10. #62
    Originally posted by climateguy
    If you're going to take a wait-and-see approach to the issue of the vent/flue pipes it is imperative that you have working Carbon Monoxide detectors in your house.
    This statement is not very accurate.

    If there is a problem with the piping this winter the unit is not going to run due to safeties shutting it down.

  11. #63
    Originally posted by jclancy
    He said that in his opinion, a larger return isn't going to accomplish anything if we also don't make the vent supplies larger....he said that, as pretty much every contractor said, the ductwork in this house was fine for the heating systems they put in in 1969, but nothing today would be built with ductwork this small. Short of replacing all the ductwork to accomodate the larger flow of air from a larger return, he didn't see the point in putting a larger return on.
    So the whole ducting is inadequate for your new unit. This is going to shorten its life and reliability.

    He told me that he lives in basically the same house as mine (one developer built most of this side of town in the late 60s), had the same old Bryant furnace as mine, put the same furnace as my Heil in, and he's using the exact same return and supplies as I have.
    So his is wrong to, does this make your any happier?

    Not being a professional myself, his reasoning didn't seem to be bad to me....if my ductwork can only support X going through it, what does a larger return do for the furnace? Isn't there sort of a logjam at the delivery end?

    He was fine about discussing the topic, saying, "If you'd like me to do it, I'll be happy to, but you're not going to see any difference." I asked if having the smaller return is hurting the furnace, and he said no.
    It most certainly will, if the unit is not operating with-in the manufactures specifications. I have seen many fail in less than 5 years due to installation issues!

    He didn't read through all 20+ pages of your printed posts, but he flipped through and read the ones I circled.
    Maybe he should come here and learn WHY it is WRONG and how to know if it is or not.

    He said he'd work through the CFM capacity on my ducts and call me back to let me know what they are (I'm not clear what I'm supposed to do with that information once I have it) and to find out if I really want to put a larger return on.

    Thoughts?
    Yes, he needs to measure the temperature rise on the unit. That will tell him whether the ducting is even close. Going over numbers at his office is not telling him the true parameters of your system.

    By performing tests on YOUR unit in ITS current location will tell the rest of the story.

    IT must be CHECKED!

    If you don’t have this checked and corrected now, you will be paying for it later. And later will be the LEAST cost effective option for your pocketbook.

  12. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bartlett, IL
    Posts
    6,619
    Sounds to me like they did all they really could.

    What I would do is put in a new return drop, (at least a 24 X 8) and add a return run in the basement right off the drop. Like a 10" round or something. I really don't know what your whole set-up is like there, but It can't be that difficult to add runs there. It's gonna cost extra $$$ though.

  13. #65
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    35
    When you say add a new return run off the return drop, I apologize, but I don't know what you mean....going from where to where? I have a split level house....the top level has three returns, one in each bedrooms. The main level has one return for the large space there (kitchen, LR, and dining room that are only seperated by a dividing wall. The "garage level" has no returns, nor does the lowest level (where the furnace is...half of that level is a finished basement).

    He was in my house when we went over everything....he had come back to do the chimney liner.

    I guess my question is....if my existing ductwork can only handle X amount of air flowing through them because they're small, what is the benefit to the furnace of having more air supplied to it via a larger return? Is it solely to prevent the temperature rise that was mentioned? How will it do that if the air doesn't have anywhere to go?

    I'm not trying to be difficult, and I don't mind spending the money, but I can see where he's coming from in his reasoning. If I were building this house over, I completely understand the reasoning and rationale for larger ducts, returns, etc. But with the existing ducts, does it make sense?



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