Hospitals Suck

[shaygetz]

OoooOooo, pretty....

But some things you can not help...like other trades that just think its a magic box and run there crap ALL the way around it.

Like sprinkler guys who crush your tin to make room for their pipes..

[sgraefe]

It is possible to get the equipment installed properly. I had 2 new facilities built. Each by different Mech Contractors, but the same GC. So one Mech was concious of service access, the other was not. So when it came time to walk the site and give my blessing, I had alot to say about serviceability. The one Mech Contractor gave me the usual "I've been doing this for 30 years...." and proceded to tell me that any changes would have to be done at our cost under a change order. I tried to argue at first, the just told him to "have a nice day". I left there and returned to my office, where I printed the Equipment Installation Manual and copied the Construction documents where it stated that all equipment is to be installed to manufactures specs, and serviceability. With the offending instullation problems highlighted in the Install Manual and Construction Docs, I emailed the GC and Mech Con. Their response... "It will be changed at our cost"
*
It is possible, you just have to have the supporting Docs to make it happen.

[Wingnut27]

I work designing HVAC systems and one of the first things my boss taught me was about the clearances and access that certain pieces of equipment need. So, some people try if its any consolation. I try to even draw a box by equipment and label it for like coil pulls and such and leave it on drawings to try and help everyone remember...architects *hrm*

[CraziFuzzy]

Oh, we are getting most of this stuff fixed at their cost, but it is taking us enforcing it, and it will never be as good as if it was laid out per the original models. Way more elbows than necessary, way more junction boxes, etc.

[luskys a/c]

Try working in a 40 year old hospital where your grampa and his friends have left beer cans up in the cielings and everybodys nieghbor has ran conduit through the cieling so you have to be a smurf to fit up there.

[db7803]

Try working in a 40 year old hospital where your grampa and his friends have left beer cans up in the cielings and everybodys nieghbor has ran conduit through the cieling so you have to be a smurf to fit up there.

Oh yea Bear cans. I've found a few in my hospitals wall and cielings, old ones steal pull tabs from the 60's and a couple of diamond labled coke cans. The good olde boys had fun building this place.

[AtticAce]

Would it be so bad if all the trades got together at the beginning of a building project and coordinate, and even plan the work????

They would call the process LEED.

How about this great filter rack on the back of York furnace supporting 5 tons of cooling? Notice the spring clip from a clip board attached to the heater cabinet. The filter is the most accessible part of the installation, the coil cannot be reached, and if the blower ever fails the entire ceiling is going to have to be taken down. What I don't understand is why installers put blowers in the ceiling, when there is loads of floor space in each office?

[skippedover]

I showed the electricians where I was going to penetrate the roof on a recent job. I even marked it on the wall, and all they needed to do was go through the hole I cut with a 115V circuit for the OD unit.
I explained that I was going to need ~2 inches of the 3" hole for my line set, control wiring and drain tube.
I then cut the hole, and left, as I had a call to run and they took priority according to the owner of the building I was doing the work at (his bar down the road had a broke ice machine).

Come back to find the electricians gone, and a piece of 1/2" emt ran directly across the ceiling to where it went across half the hole before 90ing up through to the roof. Went to the roof and found they had mounted a disconnect on my pad, using unistrut. It was placed about 1" from my suction and liquid line service valves. Exactly where I told them not to put it.

I've had this happen not only with other trades but with installers in our own company. I finally realized (I don't learn real fast it seems) that some people simply CANNOT understand the spoken word and translate it into a mental picture of what's to be done. They'll stand and listen, nod their heads in the affirmative and even tell you they understand. Then they do the work unsupervised and it becomes very clear, they did NOT understand.

I honestly think that a significant number of the people working in our industry are here because they have certain learning disabilities that prevented them from going on to higher education. They're not stupid, they just learned way back in elementary school, how to hide the disability (we all have them to one degree or another), to mask it so it's not evident. Their grades reflected their issue but nobody ever bothered to find out why, just labeling them 'slow learner' and not capable of higher education standards. Well, they gotta earn a living somewhere and a lot of them end up in the trades.

We have one working for us who has a heart of gold, the customer's love him and when left to his own devises, does outstanding sheet metal work. But give him a set of oral instructions, I've even taken him on jobs and showed him about what I was speaking, and he still screws it up, does it differently and gets like a little puppy who peed on the carpet if you scold him for the error. Some will fight back, some will just ignore the reprimand and some don't even understand when they've done if wrong.

Not trying to hijack the thread. Just stating some obeservations.

[Rcb2875]

OoooOooo, pretty....



Like sprinkler guys who crush your tin to make room for their pipes..

I have cut a 6" hole through an A/C vent to run a 3" sprinkler pipe before just to be an ass. The A/C guy disconnected one of my feeders that at the time was pressurized for leak tests and left it hanging in the air ( 20' section ). Since we had our pipes in first and the A/C guy couldn't bother to call us or the GC and instead took it upon himself to dismantle our pipe hangers.

He could have easily dog legged the duct to fit under the pipe which we had snugged up high to allow room for the duct that was to be installed. The systems have to be able to drain and the whole system was adjusted to allow for the high and tight install. Any adjustments on our end effect the entire system.

We contacted the GC and the fire marshall and in the end he had a lot of esplainin to do and a lot of duct to rip out of the ceiling What he didn't take into account was the volume of water that was in those pipes. Had one broken a seal he would have flooded the floor below and probably have been out of business the next day!

One thing you have to consider is that the sprinkler heads HAVE to be within a certain space from walls and other sprinklers by LAW for proper NFPA demanded coverage. Any changes will often require approval from the fire marshal office and redrawn and or corrected prints. The A/C is at the bottom of the totem poll when a life safety device is concerned. NFPA 13

A little communication can save a lot of aggravation on all sides.

[ascj]

I haven't got back over there yet.....imagine that.

But with the responses....

Yes this is a LEED building....I'll get a nice picture of the plaque.

Apparently, I can't really say the stuff is non assessable, because the guy we are trying to please, is the guy that signed off on the mechanicals.

I'm not one to *****, because I work in tight ceiling all the time. But what I have seen is this place is insanely bad.

And to the sprinkler guy......yes I know cooling for the room and the machinery is bottom of the totem pole. And I cry about it every time I open a ceiling.

[tjrobb]

We had a similar problem ourselves (note that I am maintenance, not HVAC). The tinners ran into a sprinkler line in the basement, so they abandoned the plans as drawn and tapped another VAV to feed one of our rooms. The result is our dressing rooms (theatre) having zero airflow and extreme temperature swings. Ever try changing clothes in 50° weather? In front of ten other people? Oh, and then they changed the as-builts to make it look "right". To this day, 18 months later, they refuse to admit fault.
(This is the same group that said, to my face, "we don't normally seal high-pressure ducts")

[dudeabides]

Hospitals do suck... like when they tell you to check something and then freak when you move a ceiling tile.

[tpa-fl]

Lack of forward thinking re: service & replacement of equipment boggles my mind, especially in facilities like hospitals where this equipment's expected to run 24/7 and shutting down areas/facilities isn't a desirable option.

I've not designed anything healthcare-related yet, but plenty of data centers & broadcast facilities. Serviceability is key -- it's not IF these things will break, but WHEN. And we're only designing for 25 year design life. A hospital with a 50 year design life should absolutely have this at a minimum. No overhead equipment, everything in proper equipment/mechanical rooms.

Any savings/profits of extra square feet gained by removing mech closets is quickly evaporate when you have to do major surgery on a building to repair/replace things.

[db7803]

Hospitals do suck... like when they tell you to check something and then freak when you move a ceiling tile.

We're aloud to remove one tile at a time with out a containment. But then again if no one saw you move the other tiles, did you?

[db7803]

Hospitals do suck... like when they tell you to check something and then freak when you move a ceiling tile.

Where are you in MA?

[yorktek37]

I have cut a 6" hole through an A/C vent to run a 3" sprinkler pipe before just to be an ass. The A/C guy disconnected one of my feeders that at the time was pressurized for leak tests and left it hanging in the air ( 20' section ). Since we had our pipes in first and the A/C guy couldn't bother to call us or the GC and instead took it upon himself to dismantle our pipe hangers.

He could have easily dog legged the duct to fit under the pipe which we had snugged up high to allow room for the duct that was to be installed. The systems have to be able to drain and the whole system was adjusted to allow for the high and tight install. Any adjustments on our end effect the entire system.

We contacted the GC and the fire marshall and in the end he had a lot of esplainin to do and a lot of duct to rip out of the ceiling What he didn't take into account was the volume of water that was in those pipes. Had one broken a seal he would have flooded the floor below and probably have been out of business the next day!

One thing you have to consider is that the sprinkler heads HAVE to be within a certain space from walls and other sprinklers by LAW for proper NFPA demanded coverage. Any changes will often require approval from the fire marshal office and redrawn and or corrected prints. The A/C is at the bottom of the totem poll when a life safety device is concerned. NFPA 13

A little communication can save a lot of aggravation on all sides.

I had a job many years ago and we had the holes cut in the wall for the duct. No other place to go thru except for this one spot. The next dat the sprinkler guys ran 4 2" lines in front of out cutout. I told them that they didnot follow the plans and they said they would not move their lines. So when they took their lunch break I got the sawzall out. Cut the lines out of the way and put the duct in the opening. Used a little silicone to make the lines look good as if they penetrated the duct. 3 weeks later they were trying to figure out where the leak was!!LOL. My boss was called in and the engineer was too. They both shook my hand and said "good one" Never had problems with that sprinler company again!. Every time I drive by that building I still smile.

[ascj]

So back over there to take a look at some Lieberts.

Hmm....can't pull any filters on any of them. Two have the condensate pumps mounted on access panels. Getting to the drives and canisters is a joke. The one 7.5ton AHU is shoved in a 6'x6' ladies room ceiling. These aren't important equipment. They only cool the MRI rooms, the MRI equipment rooms, and the Lenac rooms.

How does this crap pass inspection? The ice machines just failed inspection, because the state stated the pre filters looked yellow?

[AtticAce]

That's the problem......the guys that install this stuff, never have to service it and the guys that service it, never get to install it.

I don't blame the other trades. I blame the installer/project guys. In the one picture you can see that the fan coil is blocked by a 36"x24" trunk and a 6" spinkler main. Both of which were installed by the same mechanical contractor.

That is why they invented the Saws-all. Just cut your way to the unit and let God sort them out!