Amana vs Trane XL14i Heat Pump

[dash]

The space not being available for the transition is usually the problem.

Plus lots of companies just never use them.

[kevinmac]

Don't think any one said longer warranties make one better than the other, but when you spend the higher $$ for the top models which are priced very close of each manufacturer, warranty protection is something that becomes part of the mix.

Trane has just introduced a new air filtration device, one step above the ESD unit.
http://www.trane.com/Residential/Cle...anEffects.aspx

[Edited by kevinmac on 10-19-2005 at 12:43 PM]

[ifucdseeme]

Thank you all for you input. I am just a couple of days away from pulling the trigger. I have talked with both my Trane and Amana contractor and am not thinking that I can pull off either the Trane XL16i or Amana RTG Ultron 16. I will definitly be getting a matched VS Air Handler. But have a couple of questions.

1. Which Honeywell model thermostat would be the best to control the Amana RTG Heat Pump and VS air handler. The Trane dealer is using the XL800 deluxe programmable TS. Do I need a TS that does 3 stage heat and 2 stage cool?

2. It appears the Amana Heat Pump requires the use of an TXV valve, is this the case with the Trane XL16i or is it built in?

3. Any other input on the two systems. Right now its a coin toss?

Thanks again for making this process alot easier for me!!

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by ifucdseeme
Thank you all for you input. I am just a couple of days away from pulling the trigger. I have talked with both my Trane and Amana contractor and am not thinking that I can pull off either the Trane XL16i or Amana RTG Ultron 16. I will definitly be getting a matched VS Air Handler. But have a couple of questions.

1. Which Honeywell model thermostat would be the best to control the Amana RTG Heat Pump and VS air handler. The Trane dealer is using the XL800 deluxe programmable TS. Do I need a TS that does 3 stage heat and 2 stage cool?

Yes, you need a 3 heat 2 cool thermostat. The XL800 part number TCONT802 is the one you would need for the XL16i heat pump system. The XL14i system requires 2 heat 1 cool, but would still use the TCONT802 with different installer setup options selected.

2. It appears the Amana Heat Pump requires the use of an TXV valve, is this the case with the Trane XL16i or is it built in?

All Trane VS air handlers have a built in TXV. I am relativly sure all the Amana ones do too.

3. Any other input on the two systems. Right now its a coin toss?

If you are leaning more twards the 14 SEER units, and a couple of db sound level isn't an issue, ask your contractor about the XR14 heat pump if you want to shave a few bucks off and still have the same 10 year P&L warranty available.
It is brand new product with nearly identical performance, SEER and HSPF as the XL14i.
I really think the XL14i is going to be phased out next year. I just don't see any justification for them continuing now that the XR14 is available.

[Edited by mark beiser on 10-25-2005 at 12:55 AM]

[ifucdseeme]

Originally posted by mark beiser
All Trane VS air handlers have a built in TXV. I am relativly sure all the Amana ones do too.

Thanks Mark!

According to the Product Specifications sheet on Amanas website for the RTG36C2C RTG Line it says:

"Installation of the unit requires that the specified TXV kit be installed on the indoor coil. The
specifi ed TXV kit must match the outdoor unit, not the indoor coil."

So I am not sure that it is installed by the factory. Can anyone verify this one way or another. If it helps I will be using the MBE1600 AH and CAPF042C4* Coil.

[dan sw fl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mark beiser
[B]

Originally posted by ifucdseeme
Thank you all for you input. I am just a couple of days away from pulling the trigger. I have talked with both my Trane and Amana contractor and am not thinking that I can pull off either the Trane XL16i or Amana RTG Ultron 16. I will definitly be getting a matched VS Air Handler. But have a couple of questions.

...........
If you are leaning more twards the 14 SEER units, and a couple of db sound level isn't an issue, ask your contractor about the XR14 heat pump if you want to shave a few bucks off and still have the same 10 year P&L warranty available.

[Edited by mark beiser on 10-25-2005 at 12:55 AM]

I would definitely select a 2-stage.
Trane XL16i or Lennox HSX16.

[Carnak]

You must have fared okay with the storm dan

[dan sw fl]

Originally posted by Carnak
You must have fared okay with the storm dan

70 MPH for ' an hour'. WILMA eye was ~40 miles South.

NO significant PROBLEM in Estero FL.
Electricity was out for just 12 hours.

3 million without electricity at one point yesterday.

Naples FL has a little bit of a flooding problem.

Back to work.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by dash
The space not being available for the transition is usually the problem.

Plus lots of companies just never use them.

I certainly cannot disagree with this.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by ifucdseeme

Originally posted by mark beiser
All Trane VS air handlers have a built in TXV. I am relativly sure all the Amana ones do too.

Thanks Mark!

According to the Product Specifications sheet on Amanas website for the RTG36C2C RTG Line it says:

"Installation of the unit requires that the specified TXV kit be installed on the indoor coil. The
specifi ed TXV kit must match the outdoor unit, not the indoor coil."

So I am not sure that it is installed by the factory. Can anyone verify this one way or another. If it helps I will be using the MBE1600 AH and CAPF042C4* Coil.

Mark has covered most of this, but since you are looking at using the Amana blower that is seperate from the Amana coil, a specific R410a TXV will need to be installed to that CAPF042 coil. The "F" in the coil nomenclature indicates that it has a "Flowrater" piston in it. The TXV screws right on to the part that holds the piston.

[ifucdseeme]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
Mark has covered most of this, but since you are looking at using the Amana blower that is seperate from the Amana coil, a specific R410a TXV will need to be installed to that CAPF042 coil. The "F" in the coil nomenclature indicates that it has a "Flowrater" piston in it. The TXV screws right on to the part that holds the piston.

Thank you RoBo.

I guess with the above Amana configuration I would need to make sure my contractor installs the TXV since it is not insatalled from the factory. Now if I can only make up my mind on the Amana or Trane. Anybody got a coin?

[mark beiser]

I'm kinda partial to Trane, but I have no problems with the performance of the Amana products I have looked up the specs for. I do think Trane products are of more rugged construction, but Amana is not 2nd rate in that catagory.

If you live anywhere near salt water, the choice would clearly be Trane, but if not, go with the installation company you feel the most comforterable with.

[ifucdseeme]

I have one last question, Obviously the 16 seer units from Trane and Amana are both 2-stage compressors but I have downloaded HVAC-Calc and completed a load analysis and the recomendation is 2.5 tons. (Below are the actual gains/losses) My question is going with a 3-Ton 2 stage compressor going to be overkill? I beleive in both applications the matching proposed coil is about 40,000 BTUH. The proposal for a 14 seer sytem from either brand was for 2.5 ton Heat Pump and 31,000 BTUH Coil. Both application will use a Variable Speed blower.

Sensible Gain 23,586
Latent Gain 4,247
Total Heat Gain 27,833
Total Heat Loss 64,284

[Edited by ifucdseeme on 10-25-2005 at 10:56 PM]

[mark beiser]

There is a XL16i equipment matchup that will very closely match your sensable cooling requirement if the blower is set at 350 CFM per ton. Even at 400 CFM per ton it wouldn't be considdered oversized.



Amana has a matchup with almost exactly the same ratings.

[Edited by mark beiser on 10-25-2005 at 11:27 PM]

[ifucdseeme]

Originally posted by mark beiser
There is a XL16i equipment matchup that will very closely match your sensable cooling requirement if the blower is set at 350 CFM per ton. Even at 400 CFM per ton it wouldn't be considdered oversized.

Amana has a matchup with almost exactly the same ratings.

[Edited by mark beiser on 10-25-2005 at 11:27 PM]

I think you might be onto something Mark! I am not sure why the both quoted the larger 3.0 ton coils with their proposal. I will try and give both a call tommorrow to discuss the smaller 37,000 BTUH coil. I also think setting the blower to 350 CFM makes alot of sense here in PA, as it can get very humid in the summer and that should work a little better for pulling some moisture out of the air. Thank you!

BTW - Why are all Heat Pumps rated at nominal cooling capacity instead of Heating which by my load calcs seems to be over double the BTUH of the cooling requirements of the system.

[RoBoTeq]

Indoor coil never determines capacity of the system, only the compressor and configuration of the outdoor coil as related to the indoor coil determines capacity.

[ifucdseeme]

I have read so many post disguraging oversizing. I just want to make sure I get the proper equiptment to be comfortable year round. So assuming a 3ton 2 stage outdoor compressor, variable speed blower and my above Load Calculations. Which indoor coil will be best matched the 37,000 BTUH or 40,000 BTUH, and why?

I am really getting into this, I have learned so much, this is really a great place, Thanks to everyone who has contributed!

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by ifucdseeme BTW - Why are all Heat Pumps rated at nominal cooling capacity instead of Heating which by my load calcs seems to be over double the BTUH of the cooling requirements of the system. [/B]

Because enough electric auxiliary heat gets installed to make up the difference in heating capacity.
If you sized the heat pump for the heat loss of the house, it would be grossly oversized in the cooling mode, wich is a whole other can of worms.

Always size a heat pump to the cooling load.

Ideally the auxiliary electric heat should be sized to the total heat loss. Then an outdoor thermostat installed to keep one or more of the heating elements off, unless it gets below the setpoint of the outdoor thermostat.

The outdoor temperature where the heat loss of the house is higher than the heating capacity of the heat pump is called the ballance point. In the case of a 2 stage heat pump there are 2 ballance points.

When the outdoor temperature is above the first ballance point, the system will cycle on and off on 1st stage heat.

When the outdoor temperature is between the ballance points, the system will run in 1st stage heat constantly, and cycle 2nd stage heat on as needed to maintain the setpoint.

When the outdoor temperature is below the 2nd ballance point, the system will run constantly in 2nd stage and cycle the auxiliary heat as needed to maintain the set point.

By the time it is cold enough for the auxiliary heat to be cycled, the indoor temperature may be as much as 2º below the desired setpoint. A lot of people will bump the set temperature up a degree or two to maintain thier comfort level, I know I do.

If your installing contractor is controls savy, and you don't mind a little higher energy usage to maintain comfort, the system can be set up with an outdoor thermostat and a relay to run one of the heating elements when there is a 1st stage call for heat when it is below the temperature the outdoor thermostat is set for.
I have done that a few times for people who couldn't stand the mild heat from the heat pump running constanly. I wire the NC contacts of a relay in series with the outdoor thermostat and energize it with O from the indoor thermostat. This prevents a heating element from coming on with a call for cooling if the outdoor thermostat fails closed or the system is run in the cooling mode when the outdoor temperature is lower than the set point of the outdoor thermostat.

[Edited by mark beiser on 10-26-2005 at 12:24 AM]

[cmdgk]

Howdy everyone,
This forum has been very helpful, we need a new unit and were looking at the Amana 3.5 ton 14 Seer but we do live on salt water, why is the Trane better?

[dash]

Where?There's a difference only if you are close by and there's a lot of surf,so salt spray is a factor.