Need energy-optimal chiller for cooling and heating (variable speed screw,centrifugal

[heavymetaldad]

I found scroll inverter heat pump chiller Daikin EWYD-BZ, but can not find SEER info. Can anybody help?

disposable junk

[jayguy]

put a drive in it...put a drive in it...put a drive in it...put a drive in it...put a drive in it...put a drive in it...

that's all i hear any more. drives are not the answer to everything. drives have their place, however, drives cost more up front, cost more to replace than a standard starter and they DO consume more energy above 95% (typically) than a standard starter.

again, drives have their place and i like most of them, however, more and more drives are being used today in place of proper engineering.

a properly engineered AND THOUGHT OUT chiller/boiler plant without drives is much easier to control and is much more energy efficient than a piece of garbage where drives are thown on to everything to make up for poor engineering.

[Citon]

hey how much heat do u need in the winter and do u have any electrical load #s for the building?
bc tecogen makes a few products that would work but u would need more then one piece of equipment
Heavy Duty

I need about 400 ton of cooling in summer and about the same amount of heating in winter.

[Citon]

... a properly engineered AND THOUGHT OUT chiller/boiler plant without drives is much easier to control and is much more energy efficient than a piece of garbage where drives are thown on to everything to make up for poor engineering.

Let me give you an example: variable speed Turbocor water cooled chiller has IPLV of 8 - 9 kW/kW. Carrier variable speed screw chiller 23XRV EVERGREEN® and centrifugal 19XR EVERGREEN® come close to this.

Do you know any "properly designed" constant speed machine of similar efficiency?

[Nuclrchiller]

The quote from jayguy is correct. The numbers from Citon (8-9 kW/kW) are confusing. Is that a typo? Regardless, this is comparing apples to oranges,or, plant efficiency to one component's (chiller) efficiency.

[Citon]

The quote from jayguy is correct. The numbers from Citon (8-9 kW/kW) are confusing. Is that a typo? Regardless, this is comparing apples to oranges,or, plant efficiency to one component's (chiller) efficiency.

I wanted to compare chillers with chillers. IPLV of 8-9 (in kW of cold per kW of power) is rather realistic. Just look at the technical data of those chillers.

If you like to talk about plants, look at this review article, which shows 30 - 50% economy comparing to constant speed plant

"All-Variable Speed Centrifugal Chiller Plants: Can We Make Our Plants More Efficient?", by MT Hartman, The Automator, Automated Buildings March, 2002

http://www.automatedbuildings.com/ne...rtmn/hrtmn.htm

[klove]

I wanted to compare chillers with chillers. IPLV of 8-9 (in kW of cold per kW of power) is rather realistic. Just look at the technical data of those chillers.

If you like to talk about plants, look at this review article, which shows 30 - 50% economy comparing to constant speed plant

"All-Variable Speed Centrifugal Chiller Plants: Can We Make Our Plants More Efficient?", by MT Hartman, The Automator, Automated Buildings March, 2002

http://www.automatedbuildings.com/ne...rtmn/hrtmn.htm

I've seen and commissioned similar plants to what that article talks about. I'm not going to read the whole thing, because I personally am AGAINST selling a customer anything that complicated. If the article didn't mention doing it, you better take a hard look at life-cycle cost and cost of making a plant that complicated work as advertised before selling it. You're talking about major cash outlay to keep a plant such as that running for the requisite 25 years +/-, not to mention the headaches of getting the bugs tweaked out during commissioning. Life-cycle and first costs can easily strip you of any monetary gains from energy savings. Engineering is a great TOOL if used properly, but it's just theory and numbers until put into practice. Start writing checks for a plant like that - now you're livin' in the real world!

[heavyduty2010]

I need about 400 ton of cooling in summer and about the same amount of heating in winter.

well the math works out to be 1 dtx400 for cooling and 7 inv100 cogens can u use absorbers for ur cooling in the summer that run on low temp heat source like sanyo g series unit then u could make 700 kw power and 400 tons cooling and probably be able to heat any domestic hot water loads u need in the building as well.


Heavy Duty

[jayguy]

i am not trying to start a 'drive war'.

again, i do like drives. i am just against installing drives to make up for poor engineering.

the original OP is asking for a chiller with drives and i recommended that he consult an engineering company or a local manufacturers representative.

only after a thorough engineering study should the proper equipment be selected. a single chiller (with or without a drive) is very inefficient in poorly designed/operated chiller plant. adding drives does not make a chiller plant efficient.

i can't tell you the number of plants that i have seen where the drive was locked at 60 Hertz...why? because the BAS guy knows how to make the graphics look cool and make pretend fans spin on the screen but he has no clue how to make it really work because he does not understand mechanical principles. same goes with most maintenance guys (no offense to the guys who are smart...you are the exception).

[heavyduty2010]

sorry i forgot to mention that the dtx400 can run from 20% to 100%

[Citon]

How typical airconditioning service cost compares with electricity cost?

[klove]

How typical airconditioning service cost compares with electricity cost?

I believe that's a question that can be better answered by the researcher (yourself) looking at the cost of the driving source for the hot and chilled water in comparison to service costs and life-cycle cost of equipment in your particular area of the world. Not something I would have the time to do without a purchase order number. Life-cycle cost entails way more than just the service cost in a given region, also, but you already know that.........

[Citon]

I always thought, that energy cost heavily dominates all others, and additional service cost of more sophisticated variable speed system is small comparing to that. Am I wrong?

[Citon]

well the math works out to be 1 dtx400 for cooling and 7 inv100 cogens can u use absorbers for ur cooling in the summer that run on low temp heat source like sanyo g series unit then u could make 700 kw power and 400 tons cooling and probably be able to heat any domestic hot water loads u need in the building as well.

This cogeneration machine "inv100" is an interesting option!
Why do you like the chiller "dtx400"? Is its annual efficiency among the best?

[jayguy]

I always thought, that energy cost heavily dominates all others, and additional service cost of more sophisticated variable speed system is small comparing to that. Am I wrong?

i would love to help, but i think i am done.

[heavyduty2010]

This cogeneration machine "inv100" is an interesting option!
Why do you like the chiller "dtx400"? Is its annual efficiency among the best?

the iplv is 2.6 at about half load and 1.7 at full load with high heat value natural gas u can get with 9.6 therms of hot water at full load there is only a 3 kw electrical draw from the chiller. and the unit has a standard foot print. with the exhaust cooling option the units can give u almost 21 therms of hot water heating.

the cogens are nice because u get both cogens for grid power and in case of power failure they are stand by generators and the modules can be put together up to 30 units and they will all run as one large unit each unit give u 7.5 therms of hot water.

[klove]

I always thought, that energy cost heavily dominates all others, and additional service cost of more sophisticated variable speed system is small comparing to that. Am I wrong?

Like the Fram guy said, " You can pay me now, or pay me later". I'll be with Jay..............