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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    11

    Exclamation

    Hi Guys;

    Thanks for the help with my post a couple of weeks ago in which I was looking for advice concerning the 90 series White-Rodgers thermostat. I will go with that stat but have stumbled over the latest White-Rodgers addition to the family. I'm getting my system put in on Thursday so i'll miss this one! I don't know wheather this model is available yet....

    For those who haven't seen it yet I thought that you may appreciate the link:

    http://www.emersonclimatecontractor....lueMain_CS.jsp

    Great forum guys, keep up the great work!

    Bill

  2. #2
    Thanks for the link.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rochester, MN
    Posts
    5,305
    the blue is a single stage only! man, Vision still rules.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Surely they will release the two stage soon. The thing about it is, that this one will communicate with the comfort alert. (the L terminal). HO could get valuable fault information to tell the dispatcher when he calls for service.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    Originally posted by docholiday
    this one will communicate with the comfort alert.
    Are there any OEMs installing comfort alert as a standard feature?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    1,634
    Originally posted by docholiday
    Surely they will release the two stage soon. The thing about it is, that this one will communicate with the comfort alert. (the L terminal). HO could get valuable fault information to tell the dispatcher when he calls for service.
    Gee... looks like a single stage VisionPro with a beeper, crappy recovery algorithm, less flexibility, and worse scheduling. Probably good that they haven't made 2-stage stats, otherwise the contractors would use these (assuming they're cheaper) in places where the VisionPro stats belong.

    FWIW, the Honeywell VisionPro stats have always had a red LED that lights up when the L terminal is shorted.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,635
    Originally posted by tpa-fl
    Gee... looks like a single stage VisionPro with a beeper, crappy recovery algorithm
    Has there ever been a comparison of the two algorithms? I have a heck of a hard time getting Honeywell reps to tell me about the logic in their stats. I doubt half of them know themselves. If WR has a crappy recovery algorithm I'd like to know what about it is bad.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Waterford Michigan
    Posts
    2,668
    WR Blue has a model with multi staging.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    1,634
    Originally posted by Irascible
    Originally posted by tpa-fl
    Gee... looks like a single stage VisionPro with a beeper, crappy recovery algorithm
    Has there ever been a comparison of the two algorithms? I have a heck of a hard time getting Honeywell reps to tell me about the logic in their stats. I doubt half of them know themselves. If WR has a crappy recovery algorithm I'd like to know what about it is bad.
    The WR recovery "algorithm" is quite simply moving the next program time up 8 minutes per 1F from the setpoint in heating modes, 15 minutes per 1F in compressor (cooling/HP) modes. (I have a WR 1F95-371 at one of my residences, well familiar with it). The max recovery time for a WR stat is 75 mins in heating, 3 hrs 45 mins in compressor modes. This is regardless of the rise of temperature and irrespective of the system's performance.

    The Honeywell VisionPro stats definitely use something more complex, appears to be a P+I type (could be P+ID or EPID) setup, as a quick rise in temperature (say, leaving an outside door wide open) gets it to kick into recovery faster than a slow gradual rise. Unlike my WR stat, I've also seen it shut off the system during the middle of the recovery period and it seems like it's measuring rise/fall of temp at that point, which throws a wrench into the mix. It could just be that it's setting the new setpoint by only a couple degrees rather than setting to the next program's setpoint. It's almost like it's "tempering" the indoor temperature to prevent having to run the second stage. Actually, I've never seen it run 2nd stage during the recovery period. The VisionPro recovery algorithm does appear to have some "learning" ability, as I've noticed it's normally better at not undershooting/overshooting after it's been running for a week compared to the first day it's installed. This could just be it keeping track of the "error" over a long period of time.

    Here's the P+I formula from the Honeywell engineering manuals:



    Here's the PID formula from the Honeywell engineering manuals:


    Unfortunately, Honeywell's manuals don't go into details about the "enhancements" they've done to the PID formula. I don't think the VisionPro stats use PID, as Honeywell's clear that they use a P+I algorithm, but it's not straight P+I either. The Honeywell T7350 stats do use PID.

    I *will* give White-Rogers one credit:
    "The 90 Series Blue is exclusively for trade professionals and will not be sold to big-box retailers. The last thing you need is an unhappy homeowner shoving a retail ad in your face. Our loyalty is to the professional trade and we’re dedicated to protecting your reputation."

    [Edited by tpa-fl on 10-12-2005 at 12:59 AM]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,473
    So the 1F90s have the time only recovery? I thought they were more sophisticated and only the 1F80s used the primitive method?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Posts
    1,634
    Originally posted by BaldLoonie
    So the 1F90s have the time only recovery? I thought they were more sophisticated and only the 1F80s used the primitive method?
    Nope, they're time only. I've seen my 1F95 stat act this way, and the manual confirms it: (see page 13)

    http://www.white-rodgers.com/pdfs/in.../0037-6157.pdf

    One more thing missing on the WR Blue stat -- remote sensors. No outdoor temp sensor for dual fuel usage and no way to use remote indoor sensors either. This is a shame, as I like the way the 1F95 stats handle remote sensors compared to the Honeywell stats.

    [Edited by tpa-fl on 10-12-2005 at 11:52 AM]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    11
    Hi BaldLoonie and others;

    I'd actually like to know a bit more about what you guys think of the white-rodgers 95 series stat as i'm getting it installed tomorrow along with a Trane xv90, and a white rodgers flow through humidifier. I certainly like the look of the vision pro, but am more interested in the nuts and bolts functionality of the unit. I understand that it does a good job of fan speed regulation and in turn allows for reasonable humidify/dehumidify operations, but is it a reliable unit? I wasn't given the option of the vision pro with this contractor, so I just went with the higher end 2 stage unit...

    Hate to spend the money on a decent furnace and turn around and have a weak link running the processes.

    Thanks all for your help!

    Bill

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,473
    I've always found reliability with the W-R stuff. The 1F95-371 can trigger the dehumidify on demand of the variable speed blower and trigger the humidifier. 2 things that the Vision Pro can't do.

    I am disappointed to find out how primitive their "intelligent" recovery is.

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