1. Grumpy Old Man
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Did you miss this post?

Sure looks like class is going to be long tonight. I wish they would pay us teachers more. We certainly deserve it, being we have to keep repeating ourselves to the clowns in the classroom.
Ok, below is the last sentence.

You do not get actual 95% or 80% output at the ducts into the home or business, and that is actual true BTU's into the envelope.
So if the 80-95% output is not true Btus into the envelope, WHERE is it going?

Cause it sure as hell isn't going out the chimney!

If you are teaching, PLEASE retire!

2. Grumpy Old Man
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So do you want me to believe its going down the drain?

3. Grumpy Old Man
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Please tell us where this heat is ending up.

It's not going up the chimney.
It's not going down the drain.

I know, it's getting teleported to the moon... the place where you dream up your Bull****!

4. jultzya,

Check out page 3,he is taking the duct system into consideration not just the equipment.

5. Grumpy Old Man
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Originally posted by davidr
Check out page 3,he is taking the duct system into consideration not just the equipment.
Screw the duct system!
(that wasn't his whole topic)

If the duct system is losing 5% of the heat, it is losing 5% of the heat with both units!

Making his comment INCORRECT!

The more heat loss, the more the client spends to heat his home. Which adds to the fuel cost to heat his home.

At that point the amount of savings is going to be greater than if the home had a perfectly sealed duct system!

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It was the whole topic. Go back and read where I stated BTU’s into the envelope originally.

You are wrong on your 5 % statement

88% X 5% = 4.4

72% x 5% = 3.6

The 90 % furnace loses more heat.

7. Grumpy Old Man
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It was the whole topic. Go back and read where I stated BTU’s into the envelope originally.

You are wrong on your 5 % statement

88% X 5% = 4.4

72% x 5% = 3.6

The 90 % furnace loses more heat.
Yeah Dip****... Pay attention.

100K output (from a 80% furnace) into ducts at a 4% loss... = 4K
100K output (from a 90% furnace) into ducts at a 4% loss... = 4K

Last I knew 4K = 4K...
(however, the high efficient unit will require less fuel input to achieve the same output. Which is SAVINGS!)

I suppose you are going to tell me next that a 100K Output Natural unit puts out more than a 100K Output LP unit.

8. Originally posted by Irascible
The legend in his own mind is attempting to invalidate energy efficiency comparisons by mixing in duct losses and the unsubstantiated assertions of the NCI lone ranger. Duct losses ARE a factor. But they don't invalidate AFUE ratings and comparisons thereof. And the lone ranger may or may not be right in some of his assertions. But I have yet to see anyone validate those assertions outside of his own little enclave.
Sorta losing interest in the pissing contest going on, but I sure am interested in some of the questions raised in this thread.

Is it really possible that efficiencies are so much at variance with what the rating plate states?
Will a 2 stage 90% furnace burning in low fire actually be less efficient than an 80% unit?
Is low fire really so much less efficient than hi fire?
Are all the rated efficiencies really so fictional?

Jim Davis sure makes a strong statement, and it comes across like it has the ring of truth to it, but... Can all the manufacturers engineers be wrong? Is there a conspiracy to mislead consumers with false efficiency statements? If this were so, I see the potential for a huge class action suit here.

I'm with Irascible, I read with interest all that Jim Davis and the NCI group have to say, but it sure would be nice to see some independant verification, or if studies have been done, pro or con on this issue, I'd like to have a look at them. Call me sceptical until then.

9. Grumpy Old Man
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It was the whole topic. Go back and read where I stated BTU’s into the envelope originally.

You are wrong on your 5 % statement

88% X 5% = 4.4

72% x 5% = 3.6

The 90 % furnace loses more heat.
You want to look at it by your figures, fine.

100K x 88% = 88K at 5% loss = 4400 Btu

100K x 72% = 72K at 5% loss = 3600 Btu

However, you are input the rest of that EXTRA efficiency INTO the Envelope.

88K x 95% = 83600 Btu

72K x 95% = 68400 Btu

Adding 15.2K extra into the home, which is a 15.2% increase in efficiency!

Fact remains, the 90% puts more efficiency into the home no matter HOW you want to look at it! You can word it anyway you like, but the FACTS are still FACTS!

10. Originally posted by jetstream

I'm with Irascible, I read with interest all that Jim Davis and the NCI group have to say, but it sure would be nice to see some independant verification, or if studies have been done, pro or con on this issue, I'd like to have a look at them. Call me sceptical until then.
jetstream,you don't need independent verification,you can do the verification testing yourself.

It is amazing how many variables have influence on that piece of equipment once it is unboxed.

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Originally posted by jultzya
It was the whole topic. Go back and read where I stated BTU’s into the envelope originally.

You are wrong on your 5 % statement

88% X 5% = 4.4

72% x 5% = 3.6

The 90 % furnace loses more heat.
You want to look at it by your figures, fine.

100K x 88% = 88K at 5% loss = 4400 Btu

100K x 72% = 72K at 5% loss = 3600 Btu

However, you are input the rest of that EXTRA efficiency INTO the Envelope.

88K x 95% = 83600 Btu

72K x 95% = 68400 Btu

Adding 15.2K extra into the home, which is a 15.2% increase in efficiency!

Fact remains, the 90% puts more efficiency into the home no matter HOW you want to look at it! You can word it anyway you like, but the FACTS are still FACTS!
First off. Thanks for showing the public what a fine representative you are of this trade with your continual unprofessional grasp of the English language.

Here little boy. Watch closely.

The furnace is the same size whether it is a 80% or a 90%, so let’s use a 100K furnace in a 80% model, and a 90% model.

80% furnace:
100K input X 72% = 72,000 BTU output X 30% duct loss = 50,400 BTU @ register
50,400 / 100,000 = 49.6% loss

90% furnace:
100K input X 88% = 88,000 BTU output X 30% duct loss = 61,600 BTU @ register
61,600 / 100,000 = 38.4% loss

49.6% - 38.4% = 11.2 difference IF YOU HAVE IT RUNNING THE BEST IT CAN AFTER A COMBUSTION ANALYSIS which I darn well know you do not perform.

11.2 gain will not pay for the initial cost difference, plus when you have to pay labor for the DC motor or the secondary heat exchanger in the 90%.

Plus, 99% of distributors only stock 95% 2 speed 2 stage which have even lower efficiency in low flame for simplicity in inventory, but I won’t go there being you are having problems with simple math as it is.

Now, what was that 2hot was saying about you would bury me.

Looks to me like you need to learn how to perform simple calculations before you get out here calling me names and making a fool out of yourself.

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Thanks for showing the public what a fine representative you are of this trade with your continual unprofessional grasp of the English language.

Here little boy. Watch closely.
More humor that I just don't get made? Or could it be that you are indeed well practiced in the art of hubris? Your extreme arrogance causes you to lose the argument before you even start - not because your facts may or may not be correct, but because no one gives a damn about the opinion of an @ss.

13. Grumpy Old Man
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I’m going to lay this out as simple as I can for your little pee brain…
Here it goes, PAY ATTENTION!

Thanks for showing the public what a fine representative you are of this trade with your continual unprofessional grasp of the English language.
English language has nothing to do with FACTS, and MATHEMATICAL equations!

The furnace is the same size whether it is a 80% or a 90%, so let’s use a 100K furnace in a 80% model, and a 90% model.
Same size for comparing purposes only, but not for installing one into the clients home. You should be choosing the unit by matching the load requirements to the furnace’s output.

80% furnace:
100K input X 72% = 72,000 BTU output X 30% duct loss = 50,400 BTU @ register
50,400 / 100,000 = 49.6% loss

90% furnace:
100K input X 88% = 88,000 BTU output X 30% duct loss = 61,600 BTU @ register
61,600 / 100,000 = 38.4% loss
So, you have changed the data once again… now instead of 5% duct loss it’s now 30%. Can you keep anything straight? And if you have a 30% duct loss (your system sucks), and you better be looking at getting it resolved for your clients!

49.6% - 38.4% = 11.2
But as you see, the formula screwed you again! Cause the FACTS are that the increase in Efficiency is 11.2%, which is still greater than the 10% I originally used for the simple saving figuring!

11.2 gain will not pay for the initial cost difference, plus when you have to pay labor for the DC motor or the secondary heat exchanger in the 90%.
Once again you’re throwing **** at the plate to TRY and help your case. You are only making yourself look even worse than you have already! I sure hope you are NOT clueless enough to believe manufactures only manufacture 90% units with ECM motors. If you DO believe this, you better go talk to your distributor! MANY (if not ALL manufactures), build 90% units with regular PSC motors.

BTW, (just to make it clear) PSC vs. ECM has no effect on the “gas efficiency” of a unit!

Secondary heat exchangers are normally guaranteed for life. They are manufactured from SS and have a plastic end cap. They are not a high failure item due to the fact they have no mechanical moving parts.

Plus, 99% of distributors only stock 95% 2 speed 2 stage which have even lower efficiency in low flame for simplicity in inventory, but I won’t go there being you are having problems with simple math as it is.
99% figure is WRONG, as many manufactures don’t even produce 95% furnaces!

Now, you add even more BULL**** to your plate, which has nothing to do with the original 80% vs. 90% Efficiency discussion. Plain and simple, if your distributor is not stocking the equipment you need, have them order it or get yourself a new distributor that can satisfy your HVAC needs.

On second hand, forget it. You can’t understand the differences anyway!

Note:
I have also showed you (by your numbers) that the 2-stage equipment will still save tremendous amount of money or the 80% standard unit! You also should be comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges… as in 80% single vs. 90% single and 80% two-stage vs. 90% two-stage!

Now, what was that 2hot was saying about you would bury me.
You buried yourself. When are you going to stop feeding yourself your own shoes for supper?

Looks to me like you need to learn how to perform simple calculations before you get out here calling me names and making a fool out of yourself.
Look above, I believe EVERYONE can understand YOU LOST THIS ONE!

Be a man and just admit it!

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