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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    13

    Question

    I mentioned this in an earlier thread (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=85094) but didn't get a response. We're adding on and replacing the HVAC, based on forum and other wisdom, I'm shooting for a Carrier Performance 13 heat pump, Infinity 80 furnace, and Infinity control.

    We had load calc.s, a blower air door test, and a ductwork layout done by a third party. E-mailed the GC's HVAC sub a layout drawing before price was finalized showing sizes, register locations, and airflow per register (supply and return) overlayed on a plan drawing of the house. GC assumed a rule-of-thumb size for the equipment.

    I'd always figured that we'd put the quote for the equipment the GC would've supplied against one for the system I want (higher efficiency, 3.5 instead of 4 ton), and we'd pay the price difference for the equipment. I realize that there might be a little more setup effort for the system I want. No argument there.

    Well, the sub is now saying that there's something special about the system because of Manual J requirements (i.e. he wants more money). Yes, this makes me nervous that he apparently doesn't typically go by Manual J. And the drawing I e-mailed listed that the sizing was based on Manual J, as well as insulation, sealing and duct material requirements.

    And my BS meter was pegged by the sub's vague statement that the air pressure or something would be different.

    So here's the question: given a duct layout showing AHU and compressor location, as well as airflow, are there other complications about the equipment that I'm missing? Like I said, I understand a difference in equipment cost and maybe some time for setup, but otherwise, am I right in thinking that this guy asking for more money (a lot, according to GC) is mostly voodoo?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,755
    Might be a combination of things.

    The hvac sub, may have been using .1 fr for his ducts, and your third party may have done a manual D, and be requiring larger duct then he quoted.
    Also the GC may be adding a cut for himself.
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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Something special,because of Man.J requirements???

    I can't think of what he'd be reffering to,so you'll need to ask him what and post his answer.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    13
    Well, my meeting went better than I'd expected, though I didn't get more information on what the HVAC sub had said over the phone about Manual J. The sub is going by the layout drawing, at least, which removes my concern over that.

    I asked for a quote from the sub's distributor to compare what he would've provided against what I wanted, equipment-wise. What I've received doesn't have much detail in terms of model numbers or itemized costs. Hopefully, I can say this without violating the rules, but I'm looking for more detail b/c the costs are different by a factor of 2.

    Here's the list I received (I added the titles, but the lists are verbatim from the fax):

    System I requested (which I'd stated I wanted Performance 13 heat pump, Infinity 80 natural gas furnace, and Infinity control)-
    1) Carrier 3.5 ton Puron dual fuel heat pump
    2) Infinity variable speed furnace
    3) LP kit
    4) Coil
    5) TXV
    6) Infinity control
    7) Network Interface Mod.
    8) line set
    9) Condensing pad

    System contractor would've provided (no idea of SEER, series, etc, except that it's a gas furnace rather than dual fuel):
    1) Carrier 3.5 ton Puron condensing unit
    2) Standard furnace
    3) LP kit
    4) Horizontal coil
    5) T'stat
    6) line set
    7) pad

    I'm going back to ask for model numbers, which will hopefully give me a better idea of whether I'm comparing apples to apples. If there's any light a member can shed based on these lists in the meantime, I'd appreciate it.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    13

    Carrier equipment options

    I finally got some more info from the distributor with model numbers (which I may or may not have read the guy's writing correctly). What I'm wondering is whether I'm comparing equals in terms of capacity. I believe that the furnace in Upgrade 1 is a 90%, which we were avoiding in the attic, anyway. Then, I'm wondering if there's an Upgrade 3 that gets me a more-economical setup that's still pretty efficient. What would that include and what would I be letting go of?

    Base option:
    3.5 ton AC (38EZG043--3)
    Standard furnace (58STA090--1--16)
    Coil (CK3BXA04021)
    Thermostat (TSTATCCNAC01-C)

    Upgrade 1 (most expensive):
    3.5 ton dual fuel heat pump (38YZ042-3)
    Infinity VS furnace (58MVP100-F-1-20)
    Coil (CK5PXT048021)
    Infinity control
    Network interface module

    Upgrade 2 (close, but less than Upgrade 1):
    3.5 ton dual fuel heat pump (38EYG042--3)
    80% VS furnace (58CVA080---1--16)
    coil, control, network interface as above

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Dothan, Al
    Posts
    3,453

    thull

    My, pure quess, is that maybe the contractor feels that you will not be comfortable with what you want, and feels that you will be calling & blaming him in the near future when yur system does perform as yo think it will. Maybe he is raising his price afraid of the 'warranty problems' that he may encounter.

    I know that if I were the contractor, I would have specified, in writing, that I would not be responsible nor would I give any warranty as to yur confort level with yur new system before I would have installed it.

    Just a thought,Not meant to offend,
    Richard

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    13
    Richard- no offense taken, though I'm not sure what you're getting at. My last post was to add information I received from the dealer/contractor's distributor. Since Carrier is bad about giving consumers any info on what model numbers correspond to their three 'series' of units, that's what I'm trying to get a feel for now.

    I'm willing to make my choices and live with them. If there isn't a problem with the ductwork or the equipment function, I don't plan on being a nervous nelly with lots of callbacks.

    I'm just trying to understand what my options are in terms of price/performance levels.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    Gold Coast of Connecticut
    Posts
    4,542
    I do not think a factor of 2 is unreasonable for the infinity system over a standard system. What he does is mostlikely undersize the ducts and runs a hhigher static pressure than the system you quoted. The difusers he uses are most likely smaller and louder but also less expensive.

    I would sign the deal!
    Aire Serv of SW Connecticut- Gas heat, dual fuel and central a/c systems installed and serviced

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    9
    Too the best of my knowledge the network interface is just in beta testing. Since i am a beta tester in fla. Should be sooon tho!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    12,000
    Originally posted by fro
    Too the best of my knowledge the network interface is just in beta testing. Since i am a beta tester in fla. Should be sooon tho!
    No. System Access Module is in beta test.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    13
    OK, in my continued quest to get educated about Carrier's different models, I'll ask this:

    The two series that I was quoted on are the 38YZ and 38EYG. I just found the commercial Carrier site, which has more info about the specific series, but I'm still a bit confused.

    From the residential site, the heat pump that shows up on the Performance series is the 38YXA. The 38EYG appears to only go up to 12 SEER. With a given series, are there different SEER ratings available? Or is this more of a system/install issue when they say "up to __ SEER"? Are certain series used for dual fuel and not others (seems like that's strictly a control issue, but I've been wrong before)?

    Also, just to show you my quick learning, the 38YXA data sheet says that the CK5 coil comes with it's own TXV. If that's the case, why would I need to pay for one on top of that? And what does this Network Interface Module do, anyway??

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
    Posts
    18,836
    Coils coming with a TXV is a very recent thing.EYG is a builders model,in our area ,less warranty,noiser,etc..


    If wanting a YXA ,a two speed is not that much more.

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