Got my bids....need some help making decisions

[jclancy]

Hi all,

Me again....I posted earlier in the month about my decision to get quotes on replacing my furnace before winter. Thread is here:
http://www.hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthr...threadid=83989

I appreciate the comments and help offered then....helped me ask some questions now that I wouldn't have otherwise.

I see by the Rules of the forum, I'm not allowed to share bid prices, but price is important to me, so I hope I can post it instead in a different way as I did below...if the site moderators don't feel it's OK, I accept the judgement of them.

Overall, I had a 'fair' experience as a consumer. Aside from my run-in with Mr. "5 minute visit" Tappan dealer (outlined in that other thread), I had three no-call-backs, and one quote given over the phone without looking at a thing in my house, with nothing in writing to back it up. I've disregarded all of those.

Basic situation in the house is:
==========================
We bought our 1600 sq ft house in 1996. The house was built in 1969 with forced hot air system. I _believe_ that the furnace is the original (Bryant SL-D series). At some point in the mid-1970s (judging by the inspection tags), the homeowner added a Sears humidifier to the ductwork above the furnace, but it's never worked as long as we've owned the house. As best I can tell, right around the same time, central air was put in.

After several years of bad luck with the AC after we bought the house, we had the central air condenser replaced with a Rheem RAPA030 in 1999. 10 SEER model, and a new coil was NOT put in at the time.
==========================

I've narrowed it down to four contractors. I told them all I was getting 4-5 bids. I think I've settled on a 80% efficiency, one-stage fan furnace....not one contractor told me they thought the higher efficiency or the two-stage fan was worth it for my setup. Several included it as an option in their bid. All told me that all the houses in the neighborhood had adequate-sized ducts for heating, but not for AC, which many have since added since 1969.

CONTRACTOR A was picked out the Yellow Pages. He had to reschedule his first appointment, and showed up 45 minutes late to the second, with no phone call. Got his bid to me promptly. Spent about 30 minutes with me. He's recommending a 100,000 BTU Heil or American Standard, 80% efficiency, compatible box coil for the AC, and an Auto-Flo Humidifier. His bid we're going to call X.

CONTRACTOR B is a town company voted 'Best Heating / AC' in our local paper. He was recommended by a neighbor. Showed up a little late, and took about a week to get a bid to me. Spent about 30 minutes with me. He's given me a bid on a 75,000 BTU Heil, new coil, digital thermostat (I already have one, and no one else had a problem with mine), condesate pump, Aprilaire #600 humidifier. His bid is X + 28%.

CONTRACTOR C is a big, heavily advertised company in town, which did a good, professional job fixing the water leak problem in the coil drain pan when it overflowed. They showed up on time, wrote up a bid at my kitchen table, and followed up the next day with more information. Spent an hour with me. They're recommending a 90,000 BTU Lennox with Lennox #WB2.17 humidifier, Lennox 2.5 ton coil, and one year of 24 hour emergency service. He was the only contractor to suggest that even if he ducted the furnace to my existing chimney (interior walls, used only by my furnace and hot water heater), I would need a new liner put in, at a possible additional $1,000. He said he wouldn't know the condition of my chimney liner until he looked at it that day. _Without_ the additional liner cost, their bid was X + 73%.

CONTRACTOR D is a big, commercial company that came recommended by people I know in the construction business as very good. I had to call him two times to get a call back, but he met me at an odd time that worked well for me without any problems. He spent about 30 minutes with me. He took a week to get the bid to me. He told me while he was here that he mostly does restaurants, nursing homes, etc., but has about 1,000 residential customers also. His bid was for a Trane TUD080C936, with a Trane TXA030 2 1/2 ton coil, new return air drop, and AutoFlo #250 humidifier. His bid was also X + 73%.


Thoughts on brands, considerations, etc.? I have a 'lean' right now towards two of them, but wanted to hear what others in the business and in the know thought.

Thanks for all your help in advance.

[2hot2coolme]

We have some problems here buddy...you have a few bids that are like 25,000 btu's difference.
You also have one person saying you need a chimney liner.
I don't know who I'd pick.

[RoBoTeq]

What am I missing here? You live in Conneticut and not one contractor has recommended a condensing furnace over an 80% efficient furnace? What is your "set up" that keeps these contractors from wanting to install a condensing furnace? Your house over top of a hot spring or something?

I'm sorry, but I cannot make any recomendations to someone who would consider putting an 80% efficient furnace in a home in Conneticut.

[Christheheatingdude]

Did any of them do a heat loss on your home?

If you are going to go with an 80%, I would still consider 2 stage VS.

The quotes are all over the place for sizing, I would make sure a proper load calc was done for your home.

The chimney liner issue concerns me, with only one telling you that you need it.

There is a lot to consider, and I don't think that we have the information to help you. There will be people that come in and tell you to buy this brand, because that brand sucks. But that is not going to assure that you get a properly installed heating system.

Go with who you feel most comfortable with. And if you still have questions ask for references, call the people up and ask if they are happy.

[jclancy]

As far as my setup....nothing special that I know of. None did a heat loss study, none asked to see my heating bills, etc. The general consensus opinion when I flat-out asked them whether I should look at a variable speed fan was that it will be more money, and 'it's up to me as to whether it would be worth it.' There sure was no one pushing for it, or going out of their way to suggest it.

As far as the BTUs....plate on the furnace I have now says it is 100,000 BTU Input with 80,000 Bonnet Capacity. I was surprised there wasn't a general consensus on size also. Contractor D told me that I didn't need to match new BTU with old because the new furnaces are going to be so much more efficient.

As for the chimney liner, after Contractor C told me that it was a possibility, I called the ones who had come out prior and asked them....in each case, they said that they didn't see the need for one, UNLESS I opted to exhaust the furnace out via PVC pipe to the back or side yard (i.e. not use the chimney for exhausting the furnace, as we're doing now, and only have the gas hot water heater using the chimney). I called a chimney sweep and he told me that a new lining wouldn't be a bad idea in any case....but _to me_, it's not an insignificant cost, and maybe not a necessary one? When I mentioned the liner issue to Contractor D, he told me that the town zoning didn't require a new liner for our situation, and he wouldn't recommend a new one if the furnace was exausting out into the chimney.

UPDATE: As for brands, all told me that theirs was good, obviously. Several mentioned that a warehouse / distributor / etc. was nearby for parts. No one really bashed any other brand. I knew from reading here a little that brand name doesn't seem to be as important as the quality of the installation.

[Edited by jclancy on 09-29-2005 at 10:31 PM]

[docholiday]

I too wonder what the deal is with not offering or even suggesing a 90+ over an 80. Something is missing here. Your body language or comments may have led each of them to suspect you are all about the lowest cost installation and they clearly took the hint. At least one contractor had the jewels and integrity to suggest the possiblility of a chimney liner. Your chimney repairs are going to be alot more than the cost of lining it now if one is needed.

Yes, it is a huge investment, in fact after your home and your car, its probably the third largest investment you will make. Problem is a furnace has no curb apeal, a furnace doesnt have sleek smooth lines or have the beauty of a solid granet countertop. For that reason, it is difficult sometimes to overcome some additional spending.

Do yourself a favor, borrow a few bucks and see if maybe putting in the better system is not worth it in comfort and gas bills. There is a good chance you may have a 25% increase in your winter heating bills, you might just consider being proactive and protecting your monthly budget.

[jclancy]

Originally posted by docholiday
I too wonder what the deal is with not offering or even suggesing a 90+ over an 80. Something is missing here. Your body language or comments may have led each of them to suspect you are all about the lowest cost installation and they clearly took the hint.

Well, I hope not. I wasn't purposely doing that...in fact, I'm not especially under any financial pressure to go cheap this time. That doesn't mean I want to throw away money left and right, but I'm not simply considering only price here. If I were, I'd be going right with Contractor A and forgetting the rest, to be honest.

One contractor, I forget which one (I think B), told me that in his opinion, the more things you're adding to the furnace, like the variable speed, the more things you're asking for to break.....i.e. simple is better, and that if I'm happy with the general temperature of the house now (and I am, even with the age of the furnace), why pay more money for a feature that isn't going to address any concern of mine? Three of the four told me that I likely wouldn't see any advantage to variable speed in a house like this with the ductwork it has, but they said if I were building new, had a multiple-zoned house, etc., they'd recommend going up.

At least one contractor had the jewels and integrity to suggest the possiblility of a chimney liner. Your chimney repairs are going to be alot more than the cost of lining it now if one is needed.

I don't mind paying for it if I need it, but I guess that's the thing.....is it needed? My chimney is completely surrounded by interior space, and would be used by only this new furnace and a gas water heater. There's a liner in it already from when it was built. I can understand the need for one if I went with a furnace that exhausted out by its own PVC tubes, and left only the hot water heater blowing up and out the chimney.....but do modern furnaces really exhaust so much less (or different) from the furnace in my house now?



Also, forgot to add....contractor C is recommending a two-inch filter for the furnace that I buy from him (i.e. not the type of thing I can get from the shelves at Home Depot). Good idea?

[Edited by jclancy on 09-30-2005 at 07:15 AM]

[BaldLoonie]

I also think you should be looking 90+ with the price of natural gas going through the roof. Also think you should be getting a Rheem TXV coil regardless of brand of furnace you choose. Remember that your 14 SEER A/C won't get 14 SEER without VS blower. If you put it on someone elses piston coil, you may not even hit 12 SEER. I noticed the Trane dealer just bid their lowest SEER coil.

[jclancy]

My Rheem condenser actually says 10 SEER at the top....it's a model RAKA-030JAZ according to the tag on the back of it. Not sure why the receipt was different (RAPA-030)??????

[brockman]

By the time you install an 80% and a chimney liner you've already paid for a 90% furnace. I'd go with a 90, the coil, humidifier, and a programmable stat. All of these options are going to pay you back, gas is going up. Go with the contractor you feel most comfortable with, ask for referances and pictures of similar jobs.

[Paul Pippin]

I would be concerned because you said that your new 80% furnace would be vented with your water heater. Is the water heater a natural draft appliance? if so I would never vent the two together. If the chimney gets a birds nest in it then you have CO coming out of the water heater. I would go with the 90% which will save you money every day you operate it and vent it seperately with pvc.

[BaldLoonie]

By the time you install an 80% and a chimney liner you've already paid for a 90% furnace.

Of course if you orphan a water heater in a chimney, you darn well better be lining the chimney for the water heater to vent and not condense!!!

I would be concerned because you said that your new 80% furnace would be vented with your water heater. Is the water heater a natural draft appliance? if so I would never vent the two together. If the chimney gets a birds nest in it then you have CO coming out of the water heater.

An 80% furnace is induced draft, not positive pressure flue. You would have the same spill issue with a natural draft furnace & WH if the chimney plugs as with the 80. Actually risk is greater because the pressure switch could shut down the 80 where the natural draft furnace, unless it has as spill switch, will keep pouring fumes out its own draft hood.

[Paul Pippin]

I agree Bald I don't like to see two of anything vented together. I have seen some pressure switches that didn't shut off just because the chimney was blocked either. It is just a good idea not to do it. thanks

[curry]

No chimney liner on the other bids was included?

Your chimney is an INTERIOR type. The venting tables for excluding a chimney liner under your circumstances are quite rigid.
YOU MUST MAKE SURE THAT YOUR CHIMNEY QUALIFIES
to be unlined or you will cause it to fall apart brick by brick.

OK, different parts of the country, but physics are the same.

With the 80% furnace in an unlined chimney it will sweat and cause severe damage.

I can only speak for my area(MI) the code requires a liner.
80% furnaces have been available since the early 1980s and the manufacturers were saying liners were needeed(according to the install manual)by the late 80s.

Several chimneys were reuined because there were no liners installed, and because of it became law that liners were required on every job from 1994 (in my state and many others that followed BOCA code) on.

Just because your town does not have a specific code requirement for the liner does not mean that you should forego it.

Check the install manual of any furnace company and you will see that it says they are required in cold climate.
That price you were quoted was high, I think.

Here in Mi we dont get that much for a liner.

But you will be the final decision maker. Check with the manfactuerer themselves and see what they say.


[Edited by curry on 09-30-2005 at 11:41 AM]

[3puttjay]

when i had one furnace replaced in my home I too had a lot of bids from different companies. I, like you, researched on the internet and this site to find the ideal replacement choice. I have an 94% efficient armstrong 2-stage variable speed furnace. I chose this because it had most of the features i desired. But the most important decision will be the dealer not the equipment. I found one who answered all my questions and had a squeeky clean BBB record. It looks like you already have a professional company help you with a previous problem and seems to be offering to do so again for you. I would ask about getting a more efficient furnace from them. I stress also getting a 10 yr. parts and labor warranty, sometimes with the more efficent furnaces the dealers toss in the warranty for free or as a promotion.

[jclancy]

Everyone says that we DO have a liner in the chimney, but that you'd need a new one, especially if only the hot water heater is venting out the chimney. I can understand that. I guess I just don't get why you'd need one if both the furnace and the hot water heater are venting out the chimney, like they are now, with my old furnace.

I understand the point about a bird's nest blocking the chimney with fumes building up, etc. but isn't that the situation I'm in now anyway, and have been for 10 years? Wouldn't a bird's next block a new liner just as easily?

I guess what I'm hearing is that I should go with a 90+% efficient furnace. Any recommendations as to the size, given that everyone's quoting a range of BTU numbers?

Thanks!

[curry]

Stay with the 75000 btu range,

I am sure if i did a manual j calc it would come close to 65000, but nobody you talked to had that range available.

Liner is a MUST unless somebody tells you they checked the venting charts and the demensions of your chimney jive with them.

Even with an inside chimney it is an extra margain of safety to have the liner.

The price just bothers me, but that maybe what they get for it in your area.

I wouldn't quote me to them, but check other companiy prices for a liner by it self.

If somebody is reputable but cheaper, havet the contractor you want do the furnace ect. and if he won't meet the other guys price on the liner , have the less exspensive company do it after.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Lots of good advise here, I just thougth I would add a few details:

1) The reason for the chimney liner is that the hot gases condense on the walls of the chimney. There are acids in the gases. This acid will literally eat the mortar from the joints between the bricks. It will not show up quickly, but I have seen many a 'crumbly chimney' from the furnace and/or WH venting through them (The chimney did not fall down, but it is really flakey and small parts come apart in your hands). Wonder what strong winds (like one of those hurricanes down south) would do to a crumbly chimney???

2) The person that suggested a matching coil for the 14 SEER condenser has a point (assuming it is a 14 SEER). Did the contractors go outside and copy the model/serial #'s off the condenser and then go inside and copy same off the existing furnace and coil? Did they explain the existing equipment to you, knowing the sizing and features (some folks would have to look that up unless they deal that line). The reason I am going here is that SEER efficiency more and more dependent on compatible (ideally matched) equipment.

3) I strongly agree with the high efficiency furnace. N-Gas will be going up a bunch this year (perhaps as much as 50% or more overlast year). Ask your contractors to show you some numbers for $$$ savings, and then research this yourself. Having said this, the variable speed furnaces are a nice touch. They do indeed help the SEER and heat efficiency, but they really make the home feel nice!!! Think on this one for a while: is is more important to save a few $$$ now, or to have the home feel really nice both winter and summer for the next 20 years???

4) I think this was said already, but let me stress this: Cheap equipment will perfrom adequatly if installed correctly. Top equipment will perform poorly if installed poorly. The installation is as important as the brand.

5) If I were recommending, I would go with either Trane or Rheem/RUUD. These are the brands I install, I am a bit biased. Note: Trane equipment is built like a tank, if that means anything to you.

Finally, and this is my opinion: Be careful to not be too much of a bean counter on this decision (bean counter=think only in $$$ terms). Sometimes folks that make major decisions this way end up being penny-wise and pound-foolish...

Best to you with your new system. Write a thread and let us know how it all turns out.

GA-HVAC-tech

[beenthere]

Your correct, if a bird builds a nest in your chimney in the summer, you'll get fumes also.

Instead of paying for a liner, why not get a 90+ furnace, and a direct vent water heater also.

[RoBoTeq]

A few points that were brought up;

Are modern furnaces venting that much different? YES, THEY ARE! The flue gases from an 80%, induced draft furnace want to condense and will condense as soon as they hit any cool portion of your chimney.

You say the chimney is lined, but with what? If it is a masonry chimney liner it will not heat up fast enough by the flue gases to prevent condensation.

You say that all of the chimney is surrounded by interior space. REALLY? No attic? No portion of the chimney sticking above the roof?......of course there is.

Older, less efficient furnaces are fine for colder weather applications because their flue gases are warm enough to heat a chimney and vent without condensing inside of the chimney.

A condensing furnace is great for colder climates because they are direct vented by means of pvc piping which if insulated can even be run through unconditioned spaces. Even if the flue gases do condensate, there is a means to drain that condensate.

Induced draft 80% furnaces are an absolute horror story in the making for colder climates. The flue gases are not hot enough to vent without severe considerations to prevent condensate issues but they are too hot for pvc venting.