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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    N.E. KS
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    717

    Automated Logic Controls

    OK, so a little background will help first. I am familiar with automated building controls to the point where if I can walk in to a terminal, sign in and view what's going on and make changes to set-points and so forth, all is good.

    So after starting a new hvac maintenance job at a college campus, I have come across a building that has no terminal or front end user control. I don't know much more than that about the history of this situation.

    My questions are these, Is there any information I might provide that would help in recognizing the version of Automated Logic Controls that are running this building? And if so I would like to know if there is a plug and play type program that would recognize the system an offer some sort of control to me through a user interface?

    Thanks for any help you can give.

    Mark
    Some people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    What? Who? Where?
    Posts
    1,690
    The hardware will tell you what generation of ALC controls it is S20/20/Supervision/WebCTRL although Supervision system can have it's database upgrade to run on a WebCTRL frontend. Without the original files even a ALC partner with the right software will not be able to view the programming/system. You will have to contact the installing contractor.

    If the system is BACnet you will be able to view all the BACnet objects but no programming and unless the programmer was thinking about integration the object names might be cryptic. Only option I know about is what I said above, find and get in touch with the original ALC partner that did the installation.

    kontrol out
    "Open is as open does." - Forrest Gump
    "Can't we all just get a Lon?" - Garry Jack
    "BACnet: integration or interrogation?" - The Janitor
    "Open protocols? You can't handle open protocols!" - Nathan R. Jessup
    “What’s that? Aaa… open protocols? Don’t talk about…. open protocols? Are you kidding me? Open protocols? I just hope we can hardwire an interface!” - Jim Mora http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7fjDS0jKiE

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    223

    What might help to figure out what you have?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdharris68 View Post
    OK, so a little background will help first. I am familiar with automated building controls to the point where if I can walk in to a terminal, sign in and view what's going on and make changes to set-points and so forth, all is good.

    So after starting a new hvac maintenance job at a college campus, I have come across a building that has no terminal or front end user control. I don't know much more than that about the history of this situation.

    My questions are these, Is there any information I might provide that would help in recognizing the version of Automated Logic Controls that are running this building? And if so I would like to know if there is a plug and play type program that would recognize the system an offer some sort of control to me through a user interface?

    Thanks for any help you can give.

    Mark
    See if you can post some pictures of the control modules, and potentially a gateway. The gateway(s) could have any of the following on the front in black letters;
    GCM2
    LGE
    LGMRE
    LGR
    LGR25
    LGR250
    LGR1000

    Most control modules will have a brushed aluminum cover.

    If you can post pictures of some zone and RTU controllers that would also help.

    With pictures, I could get you close to what is the vintage installed.

    Drac
    "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit" Aristotle

    Remember to "Pay it Forward"; help out the newer generation of techs, remember someone during our career helped us! ("Pay it Forward" was by someone smarter than me!!)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    7

    ALC

    I have some experience with ALC, and this was one of the most frustrating things about this product: Don't know much about their legacy stuff, but as far as WebCTRL is concerned, if you don't have the original database (that is the site configuration database created with Sitebuilder) , there is no way to walk up to an installation and "suck" the brains out of the controllers - even if you have the WebCTRL software.

    kontrolphreak is right on the money... you either track down the installation contractor with the original database, or you are looking at re-creating all control algorithms & configurations with WebCTRL (daunting task depending on how large the installation) ....OR.... if things are running ok in the field, and all you want is to view BACnet objects, integrate the BACnet objects to your system of choice over IP.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    N.E. KS
    Posts
    717
    Thanks for the reply's
    Some people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    258
    Like they said, no database, you're screwed. Most reputable contractors would have left you the ALC install disks and a database, after all, you own both. You're going to have to look around for a backup or contact the installing contractors. Maybe they left you a CD in one of your control panels?? What about as-built drawings, again, you own those too. I have database backups from back as far as 1992.
    HotRod


    Controls..some days your a hero, some days your a zero. Direct acting since 1992.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hopkins, South Carolina
    Posts
    155
    The current release of WebCTRL give the option to have the ability to suck program and grafic out of controller with software called "Field Assistant". Played with it for a bit the other day.

    When I came to work for a ALC dealer I was surprised there was not a way to suck out a program but was explained it was done that way on purpose for protection of the dealer.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Somewhere in the world.
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    1,601
    Field Assistant will only work with V4 and above. You would need to upgrade the system.
    Arguing with your Boss is like wrestling with a pig in
    mud.
    After a while you realize that while you are getting
    dirty, the pig is actually enjoying it.

    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it
    creative problem solving.

    25 years ago we had Bob Hope , Steve Jobs , and Johnny Cash today we have no Hope no Jobs and no Cash !
    I can fix broke but i can't fix stupid !

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    N.E. KS
    Posts
    717
    Thanks for the reply's. I guess I was hoping something could be done short of completely redoing all of the controls in this building.
    Some people know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Amarillo by mornin'
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by york56 View Post
    Field Assistant will only work with V4 and above. You would need to upgrade the system.
    Um...actually ver 5.2 and above. Also, its pretty short lived. The module has to have ALOT of avaliable memeory, which the only thing that will is a LGR.
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    "It's not that I'm smart, it's that I stay with the problem longer”
    Albert Einstein

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Somewhere in the world.
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    1,601
    Quote Originally Posted by xarralu View Post
    Um...actually ver 5.2 and above. Also, its pretty short lived. The module has to have ALOT of avaliable memeory, which the only thing that will is a LGR.
    Yes you are correct should have said must have V4 drivers and available memory in order to work.
    Arguing with your Boss is like wrestling with a pig in
    mud.
    After a while you realize that while you are getting
    dirty, the pig is actually enjoying it.

    It is not exactly cheating, I prefer to consider it
    creative problem solving.

    25 years ago we had Bob Hope , Steve Jobs , and Johnny Cash today we have no Hope no Jobs and no Cash !
    I can fix broke but i can't fix stupid !

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    625
    I think the real catch with field assistant is it has to originally be programmed with the right drivers and options and have everything ready before it will help you at some time in the future. We are ready and waiting to give this a try but sadly even with the 16mb modules I don't think we are going to have enough space to leave a copy of everything on the module.
    Scott Jalbert
    Harris Integrated Solutions

    Formerly Liebert (Emerson Network Power)
    Expressed opinions are my own

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