comp programming

[filterbuoy]

new to ddc--do you need to learn the computer programming languages? (basic,java,c++)i've been reading the h/w gray book and it talks about object-orientated languages (custom software packages) tailored to the requirements of specific vendor's controller.sounds easier than acomp science course.

[joey791]

Originally posted by filterbuoy
new to ddc--do you need to learn the computer programming languages? (basic,java,c++)i've been reading the h/w gray book and it talks about object-orientated languages (custom software packages) tailored to the requirements of specific vendor's controller.sounds easier than acomp science course.

where you get the gray book and what year is it?

[filterbuoy]

from work (h/w),it's 1997.

[joey791]

got access to anymore?

[lwarren]

I might have it in a pdf file. I will have to look.

[wolfdog]

Is this the H\W manual you are speaking of?

http://customer.honeywell.com/techli...0s/77-1100.pdf

[filterbuoy]

that's the one but on your's (pdf)--program design,writing,compiling is on page # 137 ,mine its on page # 143.do you know if you still need to learn the standard programming languages (basic etc.)?

[joey791]

ive got copies of the pdf, plus I got it on cd, looking for the actual book.

For programming it depends on what company you go with on what type of programming you need, until you plot a course filter it is hard to say.

[filterbuoy]

joey791--they closed our h/w service-line department (that's where i scooped mine) but i'll snoop around the book shelves.i'll let you know if one turns up.

[joey791]

Originally posted by filterbuoy
joey791--they closed our h/w service-line department (that's where i scooped mine) but i'll snoop around the book shelves.i'll let you know if one turns up.

Cool I really appreciate it.

[crab master]

I don't know much about computer programming languages. Learned a bit about line code with Powers systems. If this then go to line 3040 etc.
I've learned the programming software that our distributor uses. It's a graphical programming interface. There's others out there that use plain english programming and from what I understand you can easily read/write to that by just reading or typing in sentences what you want it to do. I guess the bigger issue here is that they don't all fall back on one protocol. So pick a langauge and start learning. LON would probably be a good one to start. Open protocol and everyone has to talk SNVTs, SCPTs, UCPTs, etc.
Someone correct me if I am wrong here but that is my limited understanding.

[brnaul]

It depends much on the vendors system you use, and what you want to do with it.

For most of the control programs, any exposure to programming languages helps, but is in no way required. The programming languages used to create control programs tend to be proprietay anyway. The most important thing here is an understanding of WHAT you want the program to do. Then comes the HOW to accomplish it within the capabilities (or lack of) of the system you are working with.

You have two parts that are related - data and logic. The data comes from hardware I/O, and nowadays, from the control network in the form of open protocol points (whether BACnet, Lon, or Modbus). The logic is the part that uses and produces more data, and that is where programming sequence comes in. For controllers that have programmable logic, the only way to get at it is the vendors programming tool, so it is the best starting point.

BACnet, Lon, or any other protocols are not programming languages - they are data. And for some pieces of equipment, that is all you can get out of them. An example might be a LonWorks VAV controller. The programming logic may be permanent, and all you really do is set some configuration parameters, and link the data points with other devices. But this stuff is important in today's controls, and it does pay to learn the use of open protocols for data exchange.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by filterbuoy
new to ddc--do you need to learn the computer programming languages? (basic,java,c++)i've been reading the h/w gray book and it talks about object-orientated languages (custom software packages) tailored to the requirements of specific vendor's controller.sounds easier than acomp science course.

As others have noted, no ... you don't HAVE to learn computer programming, depending upon the equipment you are working with, the way the company you work for is organized, your particular position and job function, and so forth.

Some DDC controllers have fixed sets of functions, routines and such in firmware. Programming them is pretty much click on a button or control to activate it, or deactivate, click on which input you wish it to reference, and fill in the blanks for scaling, engineering units, PID loop parameters, etc.

Some vendors make available, for programmable controllers with no fixed controls and routines, a graphical programming enviornment. Where you essentially select from a list of premade boxes the things you needs. An input box, a time delay box, and an output box. Draw links between them and then fill in the blanks for assigning properties to each. ie Scaling for the input and whether it's voltage, resistance, etc, then give it an Engineering Unit (degrees, volts, etc. And, if desired, assign alarm point values and so forth. Move to the time delay block, and do the same. So forth and so on. The programming "language" may have hundreds of premade boxes or blocks containing various functions. That is, a widget that might do something you need to get done. Or will, once you combine it with other widgets.

Some such graphical programming languages are pretty good. Others suck. Usually the vendor makes it possible to enter regular, real line code programming to accomplish things you can't, no matter how you arrange them, with the premade blocks.

FWIW, there really is regular line code program lines behind the pretty pictures, you just don't see it and don't necessarily need to learn it. It's pretty much the same as with things like Visual Basic, where you use a graphical "interface" to DRAW a screen form and put buttons, input blocks, output text boxes and such on the form (window)using pictures you drag and drop, and drawing lines and such. But behind the scenes, the interface program is "writing" lines of computer code for you. And, in fact, you could just write the code without using the pretty pictures. If you know how.

Still other controllers use one or another version of line code programming. Which range from terse and hard to understand (until you learn it well) commands, functions, and statements resembling assembly language pseudo-code ... to well developed, rich in commands and functions languages which resemble a much enhanced and advanced "Basic". One vendor calls it's programming langauge "Plain English Programming". Which is a rather vast exaggeration. But it's a very good, well made programming language.

My suggestion? Pick one, learn it. Won't hurt you. It can be fun. And the basic principles you'll learn can be useful. And will be applicable to almost any other computer language. The first one is always the hardest. But once you understand the logic and principles, the next you learn will come much easier. The differences usually being cosmetic, more than anything else. ie The using of different terms for the same thing you know under a different term, do you signify an EOL (end of line)with a cariage return, line feed, carriage return and line feed, or a semicolon, etc. That kind of thing. But once yah learn the basic concepts of what variables are and the different kinds, what is an array and what's a multidimensional array, program flow control items like If ... then ... else as versus Case, fixed functions and what user defined functions are, etc. And the WHAT and WHY behind the existance of such things. (Why have em, and what do yah do with em?) You'll have it whupped. After that, going to a different computer language is no biggie.

Pay attention, in particular, to binary logic. AND, OR, NOR, NOT, XOR, etc. And basic Boolean operations. Any decent tutorial on any computer language should cover the subject. This is used in everything from basic relay logic used for programming of basic PLC's to the most advanced DDC controllers (and, of course, the latest and greatest full blown computer systems). And is where I see more mistakes made, and lack of understanding, than with almost anything else.

Just my opinion.

If you decide to go for it, the are MANY free programming languages available. Which you can have at only the cost of downloading them. Plus the sweat and time of learning to do something with it. I'd suggest one or another variation of Basic or Pascal as a starting point. All, that I'm aware of, come with manuals. And there are many, many free tutorials on the Internet you can easily look up and use to learn the language of your choice.

I'd stick with the older, more basic computer languages such as one of the two I mentioned. They'll teach you the essentials. And a great deal of what's in the more advanced computer languages is not really useful or applicable to PLC's, DDC units, etc. If the language you choose offers both "Windows" and "Console" mode programming, concentrate on the Console (plain text) part of the language. After all, we're talking about making machines do something as versus making pretty pictures on a computer screen, generating nifty sounds and special graphic effects, or creating a new method to collate and coordinate a database dispersed over 5 different sorts of networks among 2000 different offices using a variety of different Operating Systems, computers, video screens, NIC cards, etc. While maintaining system integrety and security against hashing, bashing, and buffer overload attacks from intruders.

[crab master]

Osiyo - well put and thanks for the clarification with what I said - again I did have a disclaimer though "I don't know much about computer programming languages". ;o) Thanks for your input though - cleared up some stuff for me.

[filterbuoy]

great input,thanks all.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by crab master
again I did have a disclaimer though "I don't know much about computer programming languages". ;o) Thanks for your input though - cleared up some stuff for me.

LOL ... that's okay, I don't know much about computer programming languages either. Nor about much of anything else. Used to think I did. But then, as I learned more ... about all sorts of things ... I grew to realize something. And that's how much there was out there which I still did not know.

Now, that bothered me, for a bit. Until I thought about it further. And realized a few things.

1) Nobody out there in the world knows everything. And often, they don't know as much as they think they do. So I've got a lot of company in my ignorance. I'm in no danger of being lonely or feeling out of place and not one of the crowd.

2) Since I don't know everything, I've got something to look forward to. I can get up every morning with the realistic expectation that today ... I can learn something new. Life is an adventure. Whew !!! At least I'm in no danger of being bored to death because I already know everything.

3) Since I realized the true depth of my ignorance, I've learned this is actually advantageous. I tend to approach things and people with a more open mind. I don't jump to conclusions so easily nor make as many "assumptions". I'm more willing to listen and learn. From anyone. As a result, I've learned a lot of new things I might have otherwise missed. ie A couple weeks ago I spent some time with a balancer. I had no one else to use to assist him, without pulling em off another job. Now this fellow is an older one, ex-tin bender. And not exactly the sharpest tack in box, if you know what I mean. But we made chat, and I listened, watched, and asked questions. And found out that while this fellow might not be the best talker, didn't know a lot of fancy words and terms ... he did know a LOT of things I didn't know. Or didn't know well. He seemed a fumbling sort, he seemed slow ... of action and mind, etc. But there turned out to be a method to his madness, as the old saying goes. And it turns out he was simply being meticulous and forming a "big picture" in his head of the overall plant. And was going back to this or that from time to time to recheck, and confirm his thoughts. With the result that he found and noticed numerous things others had missed. He was the third balancer to go thru this one building that was a problem child. Besides the balancers, several engineers from various companies had tried to identify and solve issues with that building which were long standing. All had failed. By the time this guy was done, she was tuned to the T's. Except for two areas that'd need new work by pipefittters and tin benders to fix some problems he'd found that everyone else had missed. And I'd learned a lot from him.

This makes life more interesting, since I've found that one can learn little "treasures" from almost anyone else.

4) I've found that while I'm a jack of all trades, so to speak. With SOME knowledge of a lot of things. But master of none. And have decided that's not a BAD thing. Not at all. After all, it's how I got the kind of jobs I have, and have had. Doing what I do requires one to have a broad background, rather than a highly specialized one.

ie I think of a certain pipefitter with our company. Who begged ... and worked at it... to be shifted over to the automation side. In the past he'd worked himself into a niche. As a chiller specialist. And was VERY good at it, one of the very best. But after a few years of being Mr Chiller, he found himself being bored half to death. Mostly he did the same old things, day in and day out. Same sort of work, every day. After a while, there was nothing much of any sort of chiller he didn't know or hadn't done. Numerous times. And work had become drudgery rather than fun and interesting. He wanted OUT of his pigeon hole. And managed to get out of it, and is much happier these days.

And I think of one of our programming specialists. Who has worked his way into a full time BAS programming position. Not a bad gig. Has his own office, lots an lots of toys to play with. At any one time he's usually got 2 desktops and a laptop going at the same time. Has a nice chair, one of the best money can buy, since he occupies it a LOT. Knows more about progamming; DDC equipment, PLCs, or Windows C, C++, VB, HTML, etc than I'll ever know. I'm not shabby, but don't hold a candle compared to him. However, as a result, that's all he ever does.

Hmmmm. Me, on any particular day I'm often not sure what I'll be doing. Might be doing CAD or Visio work. Creating a new Excel worksheet to accomplish some task. Writing or modifying or debugging a line code program. Be out and about figuring out the best wire run for a new job. Be troubleshooting a system or component; BAS, AHU, boiler, chiller, VFD, or whatever. Answering customer questions and complaints. Holding training for a customer. Modifying a head end graphic screen. Tuning a PID loop in a troublesome system. Helping a guy pull wire. Or helping some other guy who's got Widget A that needs to be installed in some seemingly impossible place. Who's asked my advice and opinion, because I've done a lot of different stuff, and can usually find a way. Whatever.

Every day is an adventure, for me.

So I've decided I'm happy in my blissful ignorance. And can live with the fact I don't know everything about any particular subject. And am expert on none.