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  1. #40
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    Feb 2003
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    S.W. PA
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    Originally posted by gruvn
    Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
    An automotive mechanic provides his own tools, but the pay is based on "beating" an established book time. In other words, you book 60 hours for the week, work 40 and get paid for 60. Therefore, there is some incentive to buy your own tools, especially the cheater ones that save time.


    [Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 07:17 AM]
    So my vehicle is being worked on by a mechanic that is in a hurry ?

    Is this really how they do it ?

    Are theestimated times sufficeint enough that the mechanic can beat them easily , or is he just slamming stuff in it ?


    Is he even doing half the work that he writes down ?


    I will ask the dealer next time I go how the mechanics get paid, and if this is true, I will go elsewhere.
    It is a form of flat rate it can and does work well in most situations
    You see gruvn if a tech or mechanic that is not afraid to work for a living would have a whole lot to gain by being paid this way

    I have been trying to get to a system like it, this form of earning is more fair for both the employer and the employee (well at least if the employee is not lazy)




  2. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    126
    Originally posted by NormChris

    As far as I am concerned anyone who considers himself a professional HVAC technician and who takes his or here career seriously owns his own tools. At least all the hand tools, manifold gage sets and a few cordless power tools.

    But, not a recovery machine, vacuum pump or other larger pieces of equipment. There is a difference between tools and equipment.

    Every serious technician should have a nice library of HVAC books! And, read them!

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,722
    superheater...you trying to say something or just repeat?
    Get back to work.™

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by gruvn
    So my vehicle is being worked on by a mechanic that is in a hurry ?

    Is this really how they do it ?

    Are theestimated times sufficeint enough that the mechanic can beat them easily , or is he just slamming stuff in it ?


    Is he even doing half the work that he writes down ?


    I will ask the dealer next time I go how the mechanics get paid, and if this is true, I will go elsewhere.
    Yes, that is how it is done. Do not let the "hourly rate" fool you.

    All those specialized tools that the mechanic pays for enable him to beat the clock and "book" more time, earning more money.

    (Conversely, the specialized tools that I own enable my boss to earn more money, and enable him to ask me "Aren't you done YET???")

    There are books that detail every little procedure, and someone, somewhere, has determined just how long it shall take to complete the desired repair.

    The number in the book is multiplied by the shop hourly rate, and that is what you pay. Small shop or dealer, it doesn't matter (but, to use a smaller brush, I suppose there are some shops that are truly by the hour).

    Sometimes, you can get a labor discount by replacing a serpentine belt when a timing belt is done, because the serpentine belt has to come off anyway, and that is already figured in the timing belt number. If you paid labor twice, you got screwed.

    Sometimes, the book time doesn't work out so well. The mechanic can end up eating it. Been there. Can't get a new job until the old one is done...

    The principle is no different than a flat rate pricing scheme for HVAC work.

    The condenser changeout should take XX number of hours, you still get paid if you are done early. What's the difference? Want your HVAC work done by a tech in a hurry? Welcome to the real world.

    Auto mechanics see the book time on the job ticket.

    How do I know the HVAC shop owner isn't skimming "a little extra" off the time he tells me? Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact that it does.
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  5. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Originally posted by gruvn
    Steve how much would you then throw in if you didn't want to pay medical ? How much is that worth an hour, will you give me 2 more dollars on top of the three ?
    Let's see...

    Red carpet coverage for a less than perfect male over 40 can run in excess of $600 a month... If you are eligible (damn preexisting conditions...)

    Steve just got a hell of a deal at $2 an hour...

    Think $3 an hour will cover gas for your truck?

    40 hours = $120. $120 at $2.90 a gallon gets you 41 gallons. 41 gallons at 15 mpg gets you 615 miles. Sounds like the short end of the stick to me, and we haven't even budgeted for tools and truck maintenance. Is the truck paid for?

    Don't tell your insurance company that you are doing company business out of your personal vehicle....

    Steve must be swimming in cash.....

    Health and welfare in the building trades in my area are over $5 an hour, and the unions get a group discount on health coverage.

    Depending on the math you use, a company vehicle is worth $5k to $15k annually to the employee. The $3 an hour comes up a little short.

    [Edited by neophytes serendipity on 09-30-2005 at 11:03 PM]
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  6. #45
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
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    14,914
    Originally posted by neophytes serendipity
    If I am required to supply my own drill, then the company should fix/replace it in like kind if it gets broken on their job making the owner money. Mind you, per contract, a drill (corded or cordless) is an employer provided tool in my area. More shops in my area will tell me that I am SOL when it breaks, but it was OK for the owners to reap the benefits of reduced time on the job by not dragging a cord around.

    If, as a HVAC tech, I am required to supply a set or two of gauges or specific specialized hand tools to get the job done, then the company should repair/replace them when they wear out/get damaged on their jobs making the owner money. My experience is I am the one buying new stuff.

    Again, there is no increase in my wages to offset these expenditures. Yes, it is a tax writeoff, but it is still money out of my pocket, resulting in a net decrease in earnings.
    I guess everyones situation is different. I supply all my own non "equipment" type tools, but my employer pays all maintenance and replacement costs for them.
    I also get paid substanially more than he would pay someone who he had to supply with all the tools I have.

    With all the tools I have to make things faster and/or more accurate, I actually don't get service calls done any faster. They do allow me to be more thorough and diagnose problems that most "techs" in my area miss. This insures more work for me, and generates more money for the company and higher pay rates for me.
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  7. #46
    Wouldn't i tbe a lot cleaner and a lot easier for everyone if the company just bought the tools that were needed to work on the jobs that they have ? What the hell is wrong with this ?

    I believe in having my own tools also and I do spend little cash on them, the difference between me and you guys is I don't take them to work.I leave them at home.

  8. #47
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    Jul 2002
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    Slacking off right now
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    7,546
    in alot of ways gruvn I agree with you thats why I started this thread. the owners have been laughing behind our backs all this time paying **** wages demanding we supply all the tools req to get the job done lying to us reg the time allowed to complete the work grinding us on call backs not wanting and not paying fro training etc etc AND all the while putting the profits into their pockets.

    I know I could beat flat rate on auto repairs I have checked the manuals on jobs I have done and have beaten the time allowed almost all the time. I know I could do the same in HVAC too. I always beat time allowed for a repair but I always book full time allowed my kind of personal flate rate.
    www.vetopropac.com - The best tool bags on the market - The offical tool bag of choice by techs everywhere

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  9. #48
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    Feb 2003
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    Originally posted by neophytes serendipity

    How do I know the HVAC shop owner isn't skimming "a little extra" off the time he tells me? Don't tell me it doesn't happen, because I know for a fact that it does.


    That’s what I want to get past when I actually put mine in service
    everyone that was involved would be able to check their own book with all the same numbers and see if it is fair


    in order for there to be trust there has to be honesty so in your opinion what would make something like this work or fail in our field



    Now also why would anyone be opposed to getting paid this way, I mean I know that some times the tech will get screwed but would hope that the 99% of the time that they do well would cover the 1% that they didn’t



  10. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Bartlett, IL
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    Hey, I thought you guys eat, breath & sh$t HVAC, now you're complaining about buying your own tools??

    Imposters!!

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,035
    As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....but as a student when I go for a job interview or first day on the job and have NOTHING and ask my new boss or future boss "dude weres my tools at" I'm not really showing that serious about the job.

    Investing in tools of the trade..tools not a bulldozer or forklift...hand tools, gauges meters and the like... shows that I'm serious about learning the field (because im investing my own $$ into it) and the quality of the tools ...with in reason (I cant understand the $40 snap on screw driver)...shows how serious I am.
    73% of Americans say that illegal immigration is a problem. The other 27% say, "No habla inglis!"

  12. #51
    Originally posted by doglips
    As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....but as a student when I go for a job interview or first day on the job and have NOTHING and ask my new boss or future boss "dude weres my tools at" I'm not really showing that serious about the job.

    Investing in tools of the trade..tools not a bulldozer or forklift...hand tools, gauges meters and the like... shows that I'm serious about learning the field (because im investing my own $$ into it) and the quality of the tools ...with in reason (I cant understand the $40 snap on screw driver)...shows how serious I am.
    If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have.

    If you think you can buy 90% of the tools you need with a hundred dollars, then you are quite naive and are showing your unfamiliararity with basic hand tools.Let alone technical tools,

    Dog , what the heck are you talking about, 100.00

    If it were a hundred dollars we wouldn't be talking about it, A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?

    Dog , I just bought a crimping tool for 40 bucks and took them directly to a grinder to have the top of them grounded down, so they will fit the terminals on the bottom of a Carlyle compressor terminal plate, it renders them pretty much useless for their actual purpose after that.

    And what about hand towels, cleaner, first aid, maps,fire extinguisher, fix a flat,


    You should supply the willingness and the ability to do the job, and a good work ethic, everything else is on them.

    Dog the only advice I can give you after reading this post by you, is that when you go to an interview, take every opprotunity you get to keep your mouth shut.

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by dhvac
    That’s what I want to get past when I actually put mine in service
    everyone that was involved would be able to check their own book with all the same numbers and see if it is fair

    in order for there to be trust there has to be honesty so in your opinion what would make something like this work or fail in our field

    Now also why would anyone be opposed to getting paid this way, I mean I know that some times the tech will get screwed but would hope that the 99% of the time that they do well would cover the 1% that they didn’t
    I am impressed that you would actually be willing to open the books for your employees.

    Here are some opposing thoughts...

    For many people, the desire to make more money will win over their integrity.

    A flat rate pricing scheme is an incentive to get the work done faster to book more paid hours for the week, without actually working those hours.

    It is no different from an "hourly" shop that has an "incentive program". You know, the employee gets $XX for every hour that the job is brought in "under hours" (the employee will make more money actually working on the clock those hours, but let's stop using our brains for just a minute ).

    That incentive program has it's pitfalls, because the employee will never know the true number of hours. I know workers that have detailed all the hours spent on a job, and they have always come up short at payout time.

    Residential tract home projects are big on "hours". Have you ever checked out that kind of work? Some of those contractors are on the bonus program (usually only the foreman because of the high turnover, so the worker bees get cracked by the whip and screwed at payout time), and the quality is even worse.

    It only has to last a year, and after that, it is a service call.

    When an employee (or crew) gets focused on beating the clock for their cut, quality will go down.

    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


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