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  1. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Originally posted by doglips
    .....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....
    People like you are why the American economy is headed down the toilet.

    I personally wouldn't hire anyone with a truck full of Harbor Freight crap.

    Anyone interested in the sheet metal/HVAC field is probably mechanically inclined, and has a pretty decent selection of basic hand tools, so no need to buy any of that for a job.

    I personally wouldn't buy anything more than the basics just starting out.

    A realistic employer wouldn't expect a greenhorn to own every tool in the book.

    A realistic employee should expect something extra from the employer if the employee is responsible for all the tools. Doesn't matter if it is an annual tool allowance or something extra per hour. A smart person would tactfully ask about a future tool allowance during the interview.

    I have been looking for that, but haven't found it yet, so the boss continues to spend $20 to save $1.75.
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  2. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
    Posts
    3,298
    neophytes serendipity

    My whole plan behind it is that I have always felt that as a good hourly employee you do not get what is fair, hourly system was setup for slow, lazy people that want to mile the clock

    I think if you pay for the work that is done it is much more fair for all involved but do not want it to turn into a problem with people flying through things to make more money because the times allotted are more than fair and when a subject comes up that a task does not pay enough it can be evaluated and changed immediately

    I really believe that a good employee that cares about there career could learn to appreciate this kind of system while the guy who is not productive will starve to death on his pay in which case he was not good for business anyway

  3. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    dhvac-

    I have experienced the results of incentive programs.

    The owner takes some off the top.

    The foreman takes some more. The more people under him the better, now he can cruise around all day, billing hours to all those jobs without actually doing anything.

    The guy doing the work gets nothing and has to run his balls off to make the time allotted. "Be happy you are working" is the battle cry.

    The superintendent at my current employer is on the bonus program. The workers get nothing. Push, push, push, are you done yet? No one will ever get a 2000 hour year in, though.

    Who's to say that one of your 8 hour jobs that routinely gets done in 5 won't be changed to a 6 hour flat rate job? Bet the customers price won't go down... Two sets of "flat rate books"- one for your techs, one for your customers.

    I can understand your argument regarding "hourly" workers, but I haven't seen anything rosy on the other side of the fence, either.

    [Edited by neophytes serendipity on 10-01-2005 at 10:38 AM]
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  4. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    1,035
    Lets see IF I can clarify what I meant to say: A Hack don't have the tools or has cheap tools...read the last sentence. "if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad.... "


    As a student (granted a very old student) training to enter the HVAC/R field I see having your own tools as a way of separating the "hacks" for those who are serious.....The way I see it everyone could go to harbor freight and get 90% of the tools they need including a $3 multimeter for under a $100....if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....

    and if you say " If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have. " because if you have none...you wont have or get a job...you invested noting in yourself..why should a company
    73% of Americans say that illegal immigration is a problem. The other 27% say, "No habla inglis!"

  5. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Originally posted by doglips
    Lets see IF I can clarify what I meant to say: A Hack don't have the tools or has cheap tools...read the last sentence. "if buying the tools chaps you butt that bad....

    and if you say " If you say dude where's my tools, it won't matter how many tools you have. "

    because if you have none...you wont have or get a job...you invested noting in yourself..why should a company
    Let me clarify myself-

    If I have made the tool investment, and I bring those tools to the table, and I ask my employer if there is a tool allowance, and they say no... Then I ask if the tools will be repaired or replaced with like kind (no Harbor Freight crap) if my tools are broken or wore out on their jobs (making them money), and they say no again...

    That is what chaps my butt, the owners reaping all the profits of my investment while telling me to eff off.

    Not the same as coming to the table with nothing, but if I know going in that the boss won't compensate my investment, then the toys stay home, and no mention is made of them.
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  6. #58
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    947
    Originally posted by gruvn
    A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?


    Channel Locks fly where you work? I only own one pair, and my wife opens jars with them...



    [Edited by hvac_czar on 10-01-2005 at 02:34 PM]

  7. #59
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Slacking off right now
    Posts
    7,546
    Hot topic allright

    As far as I'm concerned I do believe that in the end there should be a compromise between the all or nothing principle

    As a seasoned tech I am willing to provide
    3 pipe wrenchs 14 and 2 18 inches the usual screwdrivers some adjustable wrenches nut drivers vice grips one channel locks some neddle nose and crimpers wire stripoers , a 3/8 socket set a meter a battery drill a puller or two tube cutters flaring tools swedging tools to 3/4 bending springs etc to a value about 2000

    I do feel particulary the specialist tools like weigh scales vac pump reclaim electric drills grinders welding eqp etc comb anyaliser etc should be provided by the employer (particulary the items he charges a rental or tool fee upon)
    www.vetopropac.com - The best tool bags on the market - The offical tool bag of choice by techs everywhere

    Arguing with some people is like wrestling a pig - eventually you realise the pig actually enjoys it

    Gonads serve a useful purpose but are no substitute for brains

  8. #60
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    East Stroudsburg, PA
    Posts
    13,215
    Originally posted by hvac_czar
    Originally posted by gruvn
    A pair of decent channel locks are 40 dollars and you need at least three of them, want to borrow twenty bucks ?


    Channel Locks fly where you work? I only own one pair, and my wife opens jars with them...



    [Edited by hvac_czar on 10-01-2005 at 02:34 PM]
    He shows his hackery frequently here, you just have to watch for it.

  9. #61
    Why because I have channel locks ?

    Please tell me what is wrong with using channel locks I would love to hear this.

    Your sig has got to go dude, it was funny at first but now it is just stupid, it causes a lot of necessary scrolling.

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