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  1. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Gaylord, Michigan
    Posts
    729
    Originally posted by Irascible
    Originally posted by Christheheatingdude
    How so?
    The implication was that we're on par with doctors, lawyers and anyone else in business. THAT's depressing.

    That was also a bit of sarcasm grounded in unfortunately large helpings of truth. Apparently the lack of a smiley made it too subtle.
    It could be that I am up way too late and a little punchy as well!!

  2. #41

    Hmm

    I pretty much can see most of your concerns till this...

    Originally posted by csj
    One last comment and I am done. Am curious, if I asked you as contractor to list me as an additional insured on your general liability insurance policy, would you do it? Cost is probably $35.00 from your agent and you can include that in your proposal to me.....shoot 'll give u the cash when you get here. What if I asked for a copy of your workmens compensation insurance certificate....or to certify that all employees on the job site are covered by(or legally exempt) from workmens compensation coverage. If you balk at either request or say such is an unrealistic request, I know you are not insured and have no serious commitment to the trade. These are standard requests in most trades and should be absolutely mandatory requests from a homeowner before a contractor arrives on-site....its just that most homeowners dont understand the importance of such.
    I have no problem showing you my proof of liability, or workman’s comp...

    But to add you to the insured, ON MY POLICY... are you out of your mind?

    WHY would I want to add you to my policy?

    This would make me RUN not walk from your location!
    Sounds too much like a SET-UP. And if you actually ASKED this of the contractors, I can see WHY you are in the predicament that you're in!

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Location!, Location!
    Posts
    929
    If you aren't satisfied with the information you have already gotten from 15(!) contractors, I don't know what keeps you from calling the 16th, 17th, 18th. Are there any more companies you can call? This is a free market and companies and individuals are free to conduct their business in whatever legal way they want. It seems that something about you or your approach to this is creating severe dis-interest in this for the companies. Seriously, 15 places aren't interested enough in doing business with you, and you blame the industry? The "additional insured" is really an odd request by an owner in a residential setting. But I also wouldn't have a problem telling you in a timely manner that I wasn't interested in doing any work for you. That is not expecting too much.

  4. #43
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    7
    Originally posted by jultzya
    I pretty much can see most of your concerns till this...

    Originally posted by csj
    One last comment and I am done. Am curious, if I asked you as contractor to list me as an additional insured on your general liability insurance policy, would you do it? Cost is probably $35.00 from your agent and you can include that in your proposal to me.....shoot 'll give u the cash when you get here. What if I asked for a copy of your workmens compensation insurance certificate....or to certify that all employees on the job site are covered by(or legally exempt) from workmens compensation coverage. If you balk at either request or say such is an unrealistic request, I know you are not insured and have no serious commitment to the trade. These are standard requests in most trades and should be absolutely mandatory requests from a homeowner before a contractor arrives on-site....its just that most homeowners dont understand the importance of such.
    I have no problem showing you my proof of liability, or workman’s comp...

    But to add you to the insured, ON MY POLICY... are you out of your mind?

    WHY would I want to add you to my policy?

    This would make me RUN not walk from your location!
    Sounds too much like a SET-UP. And if you actually ASKED this of the contractors, I can see WHY you are in the predicament that you're in!
    First, I didnt actually ask any contractors for their insurance certificates much less ask me to be listed as an additional insured. I posted a hypothetical to the board and by the input coming back, I can see some of you folks truly do not understand why someone would even ask that of you. As I said earlier….don’t you wonder why all those commercial jobs require proof of insurance? Guess that slipped by without notice to many.

    Second, you are absolutely correct, you WOULDNT want to add a HO to your policy...nobody WANTS to. Would you do it if it was a prerequesite to getting the job? (Don’t answer that on the board) If you say “no”, you obviously do not do commercial work. It's fine if you don’t do commercial work, but to call me “out of my mind” shows me you are uneducated in this matter. You need to have a long discussion with your insurance agent on the matter, but I will tell you this………..it benefits the contractor nothing (except maybe landing the job), but protects the homeowner. I for one would look positive on a contractor who offered me copies of their insurance……crap man, your on my property and in my house. If that doesn’t appeal to you as a homeowner, I guess you own nothing in your home, and value nothing in your home, and in all honesty, your probably a stupid homeower. Guess you never heard of contractors "having a policy" and then canceling it but the insurance certificate (which was printed days, weeks or months earlier) still has an effective date somewhere in the future. The world is full of scammers and this trade is no other. Bottom line is that when someone is listed as an additional insured on your policy, they, as well as the insured are notified of any changes in the policy so when someone cancels the policy the HO is alerted.....and if you have a problem at my home and some sort of claim in indeeed made, the settlement check is made out to both parites….the contractor and the homeowner. It just makes it all a lot easier if and when a court problem ever happens regarding a claim. That my friend is the reason I would request to be added to your policy, but if you did not know the reason, I can understand why you are hesitant, and think I am “out of my mind”.

    As for workers compensation insurance....let’s just educate the homeonwers on this board here and now that in the unfortunate event one or your workers has an injury on the job and your hired contractor does NOT maintain workers compensation insurance, the homeonwer can be held liable for the injured person......any homeowner wish to pay out for a broken back, or how about a death? If so, just invite an uninsured contractor on your property. Yeah, it might not happen, probably wont happen, but if it does, the HO is potentially on the hook.

    End of my rant participation for this thread. Have a nice day and I hope some learned something from the thread. Personally, I confirmed once again that even when people provide constructive criticism about something, those being criticized GENERALLY take offense…..which is natural. But you should appreciative of the criticism for it is few people few far between that will say anything in public when it is bad. You guys were presented with an opportunity to help, instead most did the opposite. It’s your trade, not mine…good luck with it. It also boils down to education...not just in generally, but on a subject...and that threatens many here.

    Like someone else said, the are some contractors on here that are the cream of the crop. I see that in their responses, but these are few. Like someone else said, the HVAC trade is no worse than any other trade. I see that as well. Like someone else said…. Ultimately the consumer will define the standard of customer service, but it is frustrating to see so many providers of many kinds of services who do not care about quality or ethical behavior. This, my friends, is reflective of a society in decline. To that I say ……..BINGO!

    No more replies from me.



  5. #44
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Location!, Location!
    Posts
    929
    A tail-gunner, too. Our loss is your gain.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,727
    Originally posted by csj
    Originally posted by jultzya


    Originally posted by csj



    As for workers compensation insurance....let’s just educate the homeonwers on this board here and now that in the unfortunate event one or your workers has an injury on the job and your hired contractor does NOT maintain workers compensation insurance, the homeonwer can be held liable for the injured person......any homeowner wish to pay out for a broken back, or how about a death? If so, just invite an uninsured contractor on your property. Yeah, it might not happen, probably wont happen, but if it does, the HO is potentially on the hook.





    No more replies from me.




    Hate to burst your bubble.

    Even with workers comp, you can still be sued if an employee of a sub contractor is hurt on your property.
    Under certain situations.


    A now former employee filed suit against us, the property owner, and a (can't name yet item manufacturer), in excess of 3.5 mil total.



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  7. #46
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    11,963
    Just another great reason I don't do residential work.

    Top 3 reasons.

    1. The homeowner is his own worst enemy.

    2. The homeowner that is an engineer of any mechanical trade is his own and my worst enemy.

    3. The homeowner will sue because of their lack of industry knowledge and find the laziest fleabag lawyer in town who will drive you crazy with paper work until you settle without justification that a problem actually exists or see #1.


    Somewhere there is a commonality to the reasons above. Can you find it?

  8. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
    Posts
    2,633
    Originally posted by csj
    Second, you are absolutely correct, you WOULDNT want to add a HO to your policy...nobody WANTS to. Would you do it if it was a prerequesite to getting the job? (Don’t answer that on the board) If you say “no”, you obviously do not do commercial work.
    Incorrect conclusion there. I do commercial work. I have a half dozen or so clients named additionally insured on my policy. Not one of them is residential. Not one residential customer has ever asked. And if they did, I'd be damned suspicious. There's a bell shaped curve of normal customer behavior. That request puts you off to the edge - not because it's wrong, just because it's rare. There's more work out there than I have time to perform. Why take on something so odd?

  9. #48
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    717
    CSJ; I certainly can side with you as to the ill response on the part of some contractors. But it is quite apparent over the past 10-15 years, extreme, increasing changes have occured in almost every phase of business,salesmanship, trades etc. This everyday, almost RUDE approach has quickened to the extreme, the average business person of present has no regard for most customers,and has very little courtesy, or pride.(it sure is a "throw-away" society)
    There are still a FEW courteous, prideful, well informed salespersons, tradespersons,etc, out there, but as time goes by they are getting quite extinct.

    Hopefully there is that ONE out there that will satisfy you with your project.
    Good luck.


  10. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,285

    Remember the expression, "Loyal Customer"?

    Those are long gone, and so is the expectation that a new customer will be as good a risk as a current, proven customer.

    Successful companies grow by accident, and have measures in place to take care of current customers before they take on new customers. Sounds fair to me.

    Just an observation, here. Perhaps a little advance research into the local contractor base would eliminate some of the choices, without alienating the rest. Then you would already know whether or not you hoped that they would submit a bid to you.

    Contrary to popular belief, new customers aren't always a blessing to a contractor, in view of everything involved in not losing money being in the business.

    Customers need to be weeded out, just like contractors do. It's NOT a one way street.

    If you want a company to be loyal to YOUR needs, what do you offer them back, in terms of loyalty? In terms of flexibility?

    You ARE an engineer, as well, aren't you? Just a hunch....

    Noel

  11. #50
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    110
    I rarely takes shots at HO's. I own a house and business and have to deal with other contractors as well. But this HO is off his rocker. A good company or contractor usually has ample work because this country rewards honest, knowlegeagle, hard working contractors who have business savvy. Why would these types of contractors deal with difficult to deal with, potentially litigious HO's? No way! They would run from them.

    I am sure that most, if not all of the contractors on this forum have turned down jobs because of the behavior of the client or off the wall demands from them. This is one of those cases.

    I can almost bet that whoever actually is desperate enough to take this job will regret it. The HO will regret it as well because the company that accepts this job will probaly be a desperate for work due to incompetence. What a mix that will be.

    Incompentent Contractor + HO CSJ = Disastereous install

  12. #51
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    Posts
    14
    Heh. Great thread gentelmen.

    As a homowner, how SHOULD I act so that when I meet with you, the contractor for a quote, I'm likely to get a call back and also get a fair price. For instance list what labels me either as an

    a) pain in the ass.
    b) sucker begging to be hung out to dry
    c) a normal guy, lets try to give him a fair deal.

    Would really appreciate the insight. In the past, when ever I've had guys in my house doing work (pool patio, roof, siding, etc...) I always try to take care of the guys doing the actual work, stock them up with gatorade and water, order some decent meatball heros for lunch if they're interested. Tip. I hang around and ask some questions but try not to get in anybodys way. Give complimnets when I think the job is coming out really well or if I'm interested in the technology. It usually pays off for me.

    But what is the best way to interact with the guy who is coming to give the estimate? I hate the feeling of being at odds with the guy giving me the price, I don't want to come across as a prick and I dont want to be too nice because I'm afraid they may see it as a weakness and take advantage of me.

    Hope you can answer truthfully. Like someone else said, some of us arent looking neccesarily for a rock bottom price, I justt dont want to get charged $2000 for $1000 item.

    Know what I mean?

    Tks

  13. #52
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    1,285

    question for a question

    How much do you know about the company before he get's there? Did you do research, first; or do you intend to qualify him on his time in your house for no cost to you, giving him the feeling that he might not even QUALIFY, in your eyes, without even taking a couple hours AFTERWARDS to draw up a bid?

    If you made me feel like you weren't sure I'd even be considered (by the nature of the questions asked), I sure wouldn't get farther behind on proven paying customers jobs to even write a quote.

    In these times, which we all agree are a-changin', the customer might need to be careful that of the choices that are out there in contractors, he doesn't close the door on the better of the bunch because he is busy.

    Contractors are changing.

    Customers are changing.

    Which happened first, to cause the other?

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you don't do your homework, investigating companies, you'll come to class unprepared.

    Of course, the guys that don't get repeat business will be available to give you a quote, most anytime.

    Hook up with someone you know in the trades, and get some reccomendations from them. Talk to your local heating supply house, for contractor referrals (I know there's one right there in Smithtown), meet them at THEIR business place. You should be able to know about most all of the contractors in your area, enough to weed some out.) Then make a couple appointments. Talk to a fireman that you know in your area. The things that THEY get to see are amazing....

    With the shortage of contractors and the abundance of demanding people, things are going to be different for quite a while.

    Noel

    Noel


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