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  1. #14
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    Aug 2011
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    Eastern Shore, MD
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    798
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Down here in GA... CO water lines from the street to houses rot after 20-30 years... and no... it is not from the inside out. Folks NEVER replace with CO anymore... always with PVC or some miracle pipe.

    BTW: WHO warrants the loop? The warranty is only as good as the co offering it. As I understand it... WF is the one that warrants the loop... (please correct me if I am wrong). Gotta remember: A local contractor may not be there next year... or when he retires... or when his son takes over and chooses to change the name and not honor previous warranties.

    IMO: one should always be wary of warranties... rather use old fashioned common sense about them.
    The system mfr. If you know what you're doing it isn't a provlem

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    21,407
    One of the largest players in the metro Atlanta area market changed owners a while back (they used to have most of the 40+ HD stores). The previous owner offered 10yrs parts&labor for years... then sold the co. The new owners do NOT honor the warranty from the old owners customers.

    Guess who lost (and who won)...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
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    798
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    One of the largest players in the metro Atlanta area market changed owners a while back (they used to have most of the 40+ HD stores). The previous owner offered 10yrs parts&labor for years... then sold the co. The new owners do NOT honor the warranty from the old owners customers.

    Guess who lost (and who won)...
    Ok? The system manfacturer warrants it... How is it any different if water furnace goes under or the hdpe mfr goes under?

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    21,407
    Quote Originally Posted by Gross View Post
    Ok? The system manfacturer warrants it... How is it any different if water furnace goes under or the hdpe mfr goes under?
    Really... in my mind it is not.

    So to me... we are back to what I think will last and what will not. Just my ... I would trust some blend of plastic/vinyl pipe (maybe pex) over CO; buried in direct contact with the ground.

    Again, just my
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
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    798
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Really... in my mind it is not.

    So to me... we are back to what I think will last and what will not. Just my ... I would trust some blend of plastic/vinyl pipe (maybe pex) over CO; buried in direct contact with the ground.

    Again, just my
    Well, science and application disagrees w you

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    2,603
    This shows the install of the ground loop, shows grouting and back fill with neutral PH sand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC69Vc-mcaQ

    This would slow down or stop the corrosive effects of the soil. I would still clean and coat the manifold braze connections.

    In 85 I repiped my Grandparents house in Jacksonville FL. Did it under a Great-Uncles plumbing license. I used K from the meter to the Main shut-off at the house. Within eight years it had been replaced. I went down deeper than the original, so it didn't freeze. So this is a universal problem.
    Last edited by madhat; 11-05-2011 at 02:24 PM.

  7. #20
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gross View Post
    Well, science and application disagrees w you
    Yeah... and Science said global warming was definitely DANGEROUS... Looks like, as usual, it is the way it is interpreted, rather than the so called facts... that is relevant.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    21,407
    Quote Originally Posted by madhat View Post
    This shows the install of the ground loop, shows grouting and back fill with neutral PH sand. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FC69Vc-mcaQ

    This would slow down or stop the corrosive effects of the soil. I would still clean and coat the manifold braze connections.

    In 85 I repiped my Grandparents house in Jacksonville FL. Did it under a Great-Uncles plumbing license. I used K from the meter to the Main shut-off at the house. Within eight years it had been replaced. I went down deeper than the original, so it didn't freeze. So this is a universal problem.
    From watching the video... it would appear the CO is not totally in direct contact with the ground... rather the plasticized grout. This changes the issue of corrosion IMO.

    THX for posting the video!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Gross View Post
    Where do we get copper? The ground? If earth destroys copper, then why do we have copper after 4 billion years?

    The copper fields have a LIFETIME warranty on them.
    Not really. the copper you dig up in a mine is corroded copper (copper-oxide). Same as iron ore is not iron, but an iron oxide (=rust)

    Only noble metals (like gold) appear in pure form since they don't corrode (at least not with just oxygen). therefore all geothermal systems use some plastic piping. If you don't trust plastic for 4 billion years, you could use schedule 80 gold as well... if you can afford it

  10. #23
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    Aug 2011
    Location
    Eastern Shore, MD
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaleun View Post
    Not really. the copper you dig up in a mine is corroded copper (copper-oxide). Same as iron ore is not iron, but an iron oxide (=rust)

    Only noble metals (like gold) appear in pure form since they don't corrode (at least not with just oxygen). therefore all geothermal systems use some plastic piping. If you don't trust plastic for 4 billion years, you could use schedule 80 gold as well... if you can afford it
    Copperoxide acts as a barrier and doesnt allow further oxidation unlike iron oxide....again...thats why we are able to mine pure copper. (well we were able to before we got most of it lol)

  11. #24
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    Jun 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
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    33
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    I think I would stick with the water loop... Water (or water/glycol mix) in some kind of plastic or vinyl/plastic or special tubing... probably would last a lot longer than CO directly in contact with the earth.

    Someone correct me if I am wrong: A WF system installed by a special contractor (with the proper WF certs) can have a 50 (yes fifty) year warranty on the horiz loop??? That in itself would be worth a lot of the high cost of the install.

    Also... I heard WF may be bringing out an inverter drive compressor Geo system sometime in 2012... anyone know anything more about this? Reason I ask is I may be looking at a GEO system in 2014.
    I never would use any metal piping int he ground, always some type of plastic. I don't think i know of any copper pipe geo system. All use some HDPE or other product specifically made for glycol/earth.

    The 50 year warranty is only good if the contractor stays in business that long chose the right contractor and the right design and material and you don't need the warranty. I'm sure there are certain certifications in your area to find a good contractor.

    Gross: I'm not a mining expert. But a copper deposit in the earth is not just a cubic mile or pure copper with just the edges corroded and pure copper inside. It is copper-oxide mixed with all type of "dirt". I don't know exact %, but iron ore has maybe 5% iron to be worthwhile being dug up, copper may be even less. Even gold deposits or diamonds have much dirt around them. the erath didn't specifically separate metals for us to just dig up. there are just areas with higher concentrations. Maybe copper in normal earth is 0.00001% and in a copper mine it is 3%. (don't quote me on the numbers, I'm just illustrating). I've seen the copper mine by SLC (the largest in the world) and didn't see any copper at all, it all just looks like dirt before being smeltered and elctrolytically concentrated.

  12. #25
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    Aug 2006
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    2,603
    I would think that a direct earth contact DX system would be cheaper to install, and more efficent. In 20 years the technology will have changed enough to warrant installing a totally new system. Even though I have an acre and quarter of yard, I really don't want a very large area dug up for the horizontal loops. I thinking next Fall installing a new system, my mortgage should be paid, off and I can use the rather large escrow to pay for it.

  13. #26
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    Jun 2008
    Location
    Madison, WI
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    33
    Quote Originally Posted by madhat View Post
    I would think that a direct earth contact DX system would be cheaper to install, and more efficent. In 20 years the technology will have changed enough to warrant installing a totally new system. Even though I have an acre and quarter of yard, I really don't want a very large area dug up for the horizontal loops. I thinking next Fall installing a new system, my mortgage should be paid, off and I can use the rather large escrow to pay for it.
    EPA/DNR won't allow refrigerant in the ground. and the geo-piping isn't made for such high pressure. And filling miles of pipe with refrigerant isn't cheap.

    Never ever install a horizontal system.

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