why is geo equipment pricing so high?

[sharp-owner]

Hey all, i am some what new to selling geo systems. i have two of my contractors asking for geo bids. i knew these were expensive systems but dang.

a geothermal unit is basicly a heat pump package unit with a few extra components right? i understand the geo being more expensive because of the pump pack, water loop, extra controls, and what not. however, the geo equipment i am being quoted is double the price of an air to air heat pump package unit of equal size. i would expect the geo to be 150% of a2ahppu price but double? am i missing something? also, the price from my well driller is more than my equipment price. is this about right? what is the average % of job that goes to the well guy?

im looking at sending a bid to my contractor that is 3-4 times what a standered "90%gas+ 13-14 seer a/c" job would be. is that crazy? i understand high efficency and speacialised and green is costly and the way of the future and all that but these prices seem a tad high.

[geodean]

welcome to the geo world. The rest of us deal with the same issues

[obieone]

Simplest answer: R&D ain't free. Freq. drives aren't cheap to design or build, which is where a lot of the costs are associated with the higher EER units.

[CraziFuzzy]

There's also a production number factor here. The manufacturers produce FAR more air to air units, than geo units - economies of scale play an important role here.

[obieone]

There's also a production number factor here. The manufacturers produce FAR more air to air units, than geo units - economies of scale play an important role here.

Absolutely. Ford makes their money from F150's, not GT40's.

[waterpirate]

I would add that the pricing is very geo - centric. Meaning in areas where geo is done as a regular install, not a big upgrade the pricing of the units is about a plus 20% over air to air. In my OA geo is cheaper than the new variable compressor air to air units, and the propane over heat pump units. YMMV
Eric

[darctangent]

I would add that the pricing is very geo - centric. Meaning in areas where geo is done as a regular install, not a big upgrade the pricing of the units is about a plus 20% over air to air. In my OA geo is cheaper than the new variable compressor air to air units, and the propane over heat pump units. YMMV
Eric

20% ??

I would laugh you out of town. People (I mean contractors and consumers) assume far to many things about our profession. First, yes the equipment is more expensive- what would you expect? companies that engineer, tests, builds, and then supports maybe 5000 to 50,000 units in a year must charge more per unit than a company that produces 5,000,000 units. Next, when it comes to the people involved, Geothermal requires (or at least should require) a higher standard of competence than the rest of the industry. It's even more of a multidisciplinary job than the standard air to air, or fuel to air/water systems. Anyway you slice it you should be paying for better people to get the kind of results clients expect. I would NEVER do Geo for 20% more even if open loops were an option to me- which they are not in Colorado.

Just like the rest of the industry, people should expect to PAY for good results, because that's what it takes. People who bid geo cheap generally find themselves doing poor quality work, speaking from personal experience. I fix way to many systems put in by others. It's REALLY embarrassing.

I wonder if the OP will think the same way after their first geo is in the ground and done.

[waterpirate]

Just a quick note. I was talking about the equipment only being 20% more in cost, not the whole job. I thought that was the OP initial complaint? Or was he talking about the whole job?
Eric

[GT1980]

Just a quick note. I was talking about the equipment...
Eric

seems he was talking about driller too:
and agreed w/you Eric, too.

"average % of job that goes to the well "

But GEO is rarely just HVAC nor HVAC-DeSuperheater (E-Star minimal systemics)... as I have shared , then watched the q's fly:

To me since 1993 it is HVAC-HotWater-Recovery to instant on-demand 100% HW heating inclusive.
2) In repairing insulations systems and making say, attic sytems as efficient as a best Air-Solar system was since the early 1980's... then some insulation packages WITH GT are in the contract, + a new HW tank with INSTANT Priority- heat-reclaimed systems, and related attached plumbing...
Now the GeoThermal after qualified credits is always a lowest first cost, EER's 25+ (see Hydron bassic ) or VFD, 1000 more EER's 30+ and raw AHRI 40's plus for 5 now OEM's variables...

Gas is cheaper here than GT HW over 104 to 107 deg f produced; but that's at full bore. low to medium programmed speed/staging then allowing way oversized-related heatexchangers to act super efficiently::: no comparrison...

WP can show you on many of his posts at other sites too: WHO sets it up is as "lowest first cost" -ing as you can get, as well as, WHAT of all the HVAC-HW and heat-recovery needs are in the mix.

Even HRV add-ons with Priority HW systems can rake in more savings , as applicable.

Latest "infinitly efficient" air source equipment quote was $1300 more , 25% less efficiency, with some HW system in the comparing.... than all credits and rebates: GT-HW-Reclaim-100% Priority.
horizontal boring, significantly less costly here.

OPEN WELL? no contest- if it passes a 3 to 4 days testing I do.

[GT1980]

also nearly 60% of the "efficiency equipment" sales are closed here, with zoning packages, HW, HVAC inclusive... in ONE sales call, and over a 2 hour visit, regardless of no other or a couple "estimates" proposed at the table.

Yes a mini htp and a gas furnace, or boiler sometimes, is sold, too.

[54regcab]

How close are the equipment prices comparing multistage geo to multistage conventional heat pump? I suspect pricing would be closer.. Few geo systems are simple single stage..

[codfather]

Geo systems are more expensive because they should be, for all of the mentioned reasons. My company has been doing Geo installations since 1979, and I've never just sold a customer the machine alone. It needs to be installed by a person with a much higher skill-set than an air source unit. the installer should be accredited, and have an excellent knowledge of all things geothermal - ground loop design, hydronics, flow characteristics, and many others. I some cases, like in triple function units, the machine is considerably more expensive to manufacture. also, the complexity of Geo installations can quickly go past the comfort level of some HVAC techs, so you are paying for expertise, as well as the unit. Geo systems are expensive for many reasons, few of them having to do with the actual cost of the unit alone.

[geodean]

great first post codfather

[Fancy Shoes]

Can you all list some great links or email me some good links, books, articles, for geothermal installations? I have been wanting to build my skill at this, we dont get any jobs for geo work. I would like to get at least certified so the boss will be comfortable quoting them.

thanks.

Sorry email addresses are not permitted in post, please put it in your profile, thank you.

[GT1980]

Thanks Cod ! with expert Who’s installing GeoThermal -gthp’s, competitively, too.

[[and other things seen in brackets, though ]]

Geo systems are [[usually up front, not always]] more expensive because they should be, for [[most]] all of the mentioned reasons. My company has been doing Geo installations since 1979, and I've never just sold a customer the machine alone. [[although successfully done, brand reasons top mechanical folks]]
--- It needs to be installed by a person with a much higher skill-set than an air source unit [[plumbers capable to bests, too]].
[[ - by qualified compliance's to standards of 2013-2014,]] the installer should be accredited [[but capably properly may not have GT Certificates, yet be a best installer for situations, with:]], and have an excellent knowledge of all things geothermal - ground loop design, hydronics, flow characteristics, and many others [[such as just open loop, as a plumber has, and good associates for other reasons]].

In some cases, like in triple function units, the machine is considerably more expensive to manufacture. [[ And Synergistic 4-function, for Priority Hot Water and Heat Recovery while in a/c modes cooling and reclaiming heat simultaneously; and having Priority Radiant or fancoil heat and Cooling remotely]]
also, the complexity of Geo installations can quickly go past the comfort level of some HVAC techs, so you are paying for expertise, as well as the unit.

Geo systems are [[ can appear at first - - ]] expensive for many reasons, few of them having to do with the actual cost of the unit alone.

what Dean say: ! T's Cod !

and
GeoThermal are also LOWEST FIRST COST in complete considerations in certain circumstances of Propane and Oil and all Electric compared to any but only 67% equal Air Heat Pump- and already lowest first costing community school systems even over natural gas HVAC and Hot Water and Heat recovery's with fresh air having to always be conditioned all year.

I like EER comparatives not SEER for the engineered efficiencies, too -.

IF SEER were the tabled rule of comparing one to another, then one can calculate SEER's for any GTHeatPump - of 2 speed GeoThermal Hydron -(built: TETCO; GeoComfort; etc.) of 25 EER's
to/or the three speed , variable (VFD, -Inverter, 3-to many speeds);
and
-- dual compressor 3-Staging [since 1979] of Hydro-Temp Corp , AR -(built: Water A/C Carrier; DiscovAir of MI; Trane ERV's; also built for Water Furnace);
or Water Furnace -(built: GeoStar; etc.) or Climatemaster (built: GT Carrier; etc.) and finally Trane VFD
all the later having a range of EER's of 43+ to 40+ , respectively , able to have SEER's in the 50's in normal cycling--- HVAC
and
way higher than that EER of 40+ 's, with COP's of well in to the 6's and SEER's in the 60's when completing Hot-Water-heating by direct-reclaimed heat from while in the Cooling modes in series flow refrigeration On-Demand and Heat Recovery for the Hot water production (full condensing hot water generation) – all annual operations averaged -.

[GT1980]

Thanks again Cod !

-.

A last two single compressor GT systems installed with closed loop and Hot Water on demand and Heat Recovery (and for just 2 speed configuration single compressor, no zoning) concurs with some public housing claims that GeoThermal is the lowest first cost in 7 years of any maintenance- to savings- complete accounting over even nat Gas and Heat Pumps of any closest comparison [ 2.1/2 to 3 ton range, smaller homes to -up-to- 2400 sq ft, closed loop GeoThermal]

In single story gov't homes...
Costs were lower at installation where over slab floored homes, a central house "closet" shared the GT unit on a stand just above a 30 gal HW tank 'reservoir' having a 32x32 footprint; just one return-air filter grill on side wall of that "closet"; and all vertical to attic flex ducting to properly adjusted ceiling registers which dropped air -beaming-downward- to floors- allowing a similar-to effctual floor radiant heating which took care of itself in a/c modes in 2 southern states in mind. All HWater for families of 4 and 6 while in cooling, too.


Lowest First Year costs have been seen in Schools implementing very low pressure drop (3.1/2 Feet TDH water) heat exchangers, individual unit-located flow centers (no mechanical room pumps and switches) and 3 staging with Heat-Recovery HW and built-in zoning and interfacing DDC when completely comparing ALL aspects of ERV, HRV, HVAC with Hot Water AND the first year maintenance contracting and programing
to
natural gas/heat-pumps/hw/control/maintenance of RTU's (roof tops), all inclusive out to many times a repeated savings in 15 to 25 year lifecycles.

Yes a wood-burner and a minisplit has a place; and a wood burner and console or mini-like-split geothermal has more savings in 10 years and with more comfortable closed room distribution and more complete humidity control especially with VFD or dual-compressor 3+ staging speed operation, I have reason to believe.

[hensinger]

When the technology becomes more ubiquitous the price will drop, too. The demand isn't high enough to really bring in a swarm of competing companies to drive the price down. Give it another 10 years.

[54regcab]

When the technology becomes more ubiquitous the price will drop, too. The demand isn't high enough to really bring in a swarm of competing companies to drive the price down. Give it another 10 years.

Ground loops are the cost barrier.

[waterpirate]

With loops being on average 30% of the install costs, and the federal rebate being 30%, you are going to have to put more thought than that into a reply......
Eric

[CraziFuzzy]

With loops being on average 30% of the install costs, and the federal rebate being 30%, you are going to have to put more thought than that into a reply......
Eric

So basically, it's the well diggers that are getting all the tax dollars.