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Thread: Short cuts

  1. #14
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    Jun 2011
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    Utah
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    Ask a stupid quesstion...

    They say sarcasm is a sign of itneligence, so (I think) is presumption; but not of wisdom.

    First let me say thanks for the warm welcome, you all act as if you are union. I had not thought this was a closed shop. I am just glad I don't drive a foregin car.
    To the point...
    I can see how you could gleen a direction to begin trouble shooting from the compressor temp. too hot it may be over charged or slugging, too cold it may be low on ref. etc... I had never heard of using that as an indicator and was wondering if anyone else had. The tech (who has been around much longer than I) said that the superheat and subcooling would be messed up if the system was not sized correctly. I don't know much about sizing systems, but had not run into a problem like he described. So i was trying to discern from the collective competence of you all if there was any relevance to his assertion. Though it was difficult to pick up on your meaning, I think what i am hearing is that most of you feel his counsel is wanting. Please next time if you want to be direct just say so; say whats on your mind don't be so shy.

    Thanks for all the input.

  2. #15
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    Mar 2006
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    Denver/Boulder
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    2,219
    Quote Originally Posted by jdaugrefer View Post
    They say sarcasm is a sign of intelligence, so (I think) is presumption; but not of wisdom.

    First let me say thanks for the warm welcome, you all act as if you are union. I had not thought this was a closed shop. I am just glad I don't drive a foreign car.


    Thanks for all the input.
    I hope you don't mind that I corrected a couple of spelling mistakes. It happens to all of us.

    First, your opening statement is fair enough. except the bit about presumption. But in this trade it will bite you in the butt HARD, and with regularity.

    As to the warm welcome, trust me that wasn't that bad. I've seen far more brutal introductions. One point about union/ non-union remarks- we try to keep the peace here and that sort of thing can stir it up a bit. While you can certainly express your opinion, We ask the you refrain from things that might be considered derogatory. One of our other big rules is no DIY assistance. You kinda flirt with that one in your post since you haven't established yourself here. There is a great deal more to the site than what you can access now, but you can apply for pro membership and see it in the near future if you stick around.

    As to the collective intelligence displayed, it will vary depending on several factors:

    The question asked
    Who is online at the moment
    What kind of day they had
    and if they just got out of a drawn out posting session with somebody that insisted on not taking advice that they had asked for...

    But in general I can say that this is a truly incredible resource.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    15
    Quote Originally Posted by darctangent View Post
    I hope you don't mind that I corrected a couple of spelling mistakes. It happens to all of us.

    First, your opening statement is fair enough. except the bit about presumption. But in this trade it will bite you in the butt HARD, and with regularity.

    As to the warm welcome, trust me that wasn't that bad. I've seen far more brutal introductions. One point about union/ non-union remarks- we try to keep the peace here and that sort of thing can stir it up a bit. While you can certainly express your opinion, We ask the you refrain from things that might be considered derogatory. One of our other big rules is no DIY assistance. You kinda flirt with that one in your post since you haven't established yourself here. There is a great deal more to the site than what you can access now, but you can apply for pro membership and see it in the near future if you stick around.

    As to the collective intelligence displayed, it will vary depending on several factors:

    The question asked
    Who is online at the moment
    What kind of day they had
    and if they just got out of a drawn out posting session with somebody that insisted on not taking advice that they had asked for...

    But in general I can say that this is a truly incredible resource.
    Thanks for the reply. I can see the the wisdom in all of your comments. My first question was very novice. I had a lot of respect for the tech that mentioned it to me. I look forward to reading and posting often.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    State College, PA
    Posts
    1,049

    Not a stupid question

    Quote Originally Posted by jdaugrefer View Post
    They say sarcasm is a sign of itneligence, so (I think) is presumption; but not of wisdom.

    First let me say thanks for the warm welcome, you all act as if you are union. I had not thought this was a closed shop. I am just glad I don't drive a foregin car.
    To the point...
    I can see how you could gleen a direction to begin trouble shooting from the compressor temp. too hot it may be over charged or slugging, too cold it may be low on ref. etc... I had never heard of using that as an indicator and was wondering if anyone else had. The tech (who has been around much longer than I) said that the superheat and subcooling would be messed up if the system was not sized correctly. I don't know much about sizing systems, but had not run into a problem like he described. So i was trying to discern from the collective competence of you all if there was any relevance to his assertion. Though it was difficult to pick up on your meaning, I think what i am hearing is that most of you feel his counsel is wanting. Please next time if you want to be direct just say so; say whats on your mind don't be so shy.

    Thanks for all the input.
    You have to realize how ridiculous your "tech's" advice is. That is why you got the responses that you got. Checking the compressor temp to determine the correct charge is so far out there as far as anything that resembles a professional approach that the responses were designed to parallel that "short cut". Anyone in this field for 3 years should know better that to listen to this guy. That approach would be equivalent to checking the fuel gauge in your van to see if there was enough air in the tires.

    In the future if someone or anyone tells you how to do something in this trade, tell them to show you the documentation on where that is written. Whether it be a text book, the mfg. literature or whatever. There is so much false information in this trade I am sometimes amazed that anything ever gets fixed. Never take anyone's word for anything. Find out where it is written and try to find several places. You need to do your own research. Don't be lazy and just listen to what others tell you. He may be just trying to trip you up or get you fired.

    Get your post count up to 15 and apply for pro membership. Lots to learn on this site.

    Hope this helps.
    Can someone please explain to me -
    Why is there never enough time to do it right the first time, but plenty of time to do it twice?


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  5. #18
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    Jun 2011
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    Utah
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    It does help alot, and i will apply for the pro status. I have found that every tech you talk to has a different answer for the same question. I do try and verify what i hear in the books I have or talk to a mfr rep. but this one i could not find anywhere. Now I see why.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Denver/Boulder
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    2,219
    Quote Originally Posted by jdaugrefer View Post
    It does help alot, and i will apply for the pro status. I have found that every tech you talk to has a different answer for the same question. I do try and verify what i hear in the books I have or talk to a mfr rep. but this one i could not find anywhere. Now I see why.
    On a closely related topic the Hot gas discharge temperature is indeed useful at times.

    Stick around, I can promise that if you do you will learn and grow as all of us have.

    In the mean time the tools forum is a cool place to hang out and see all the gadgets as they come out. It's as close to the pro section as you can get until you're approved!
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.


    Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!


    Boulder Heating Contractor


    For Consumers:

    For HVACR Professionals:


  7. #20
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    SouthEast NC ICW & Piedmont Foothills
    Posts
    7,635
    Quote Originally Posted by jdaugrefer View Post

    First let me say thanks for the warm welcome, you're welcome


    you all act as if you are union. you are not making friends or gaining respect with whiny comments like that



    I had not thought this was a closed shop.or this one




    Please next time if you want to be direct just say so; say whats on your mind don't be so shy.we have to be careful with that, some are too sensitive to accept the replies

    Thanks for all the input.

    let's not get a pizzzzin' contest going, it's not the way to gain friends & influence people
    It`s better to be silent and thought the fool; than speak and remove all doubt.

  8. #21
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Northeast Missouri
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    61
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Rather than learning short cuts, learn the science behind the system.

    Learn WHY superheat and subcooling are the correct metrics for charging.

    Learn about how correct airflow affects these readings.

    Learn to check airflow BEFORE even attempting to adjust or check the charge on a unit.

    I'm sure there is more, but that will keep you out of trouble for a while.
    To our 3 year tech, This is fantastic advice. I could not have said it better myself. Not to be rude but do yourself AND your customers a favor and hit the hvac books and study, study. And then prove to your mentor why his advice is complete hvac hack advice.

  9. #22
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    Sep 2008
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    Western PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizzouhvac View Post
    To our 3 year tech, This is fantastic advice. I could not have said it better myself. Not to be rude but do yourself AND your customers a favor and hit the hvac books and study, study. And then prove to your mentor why his advice is complete hvac hack advice.
    Absolutely true.

    Even with 16 years in the trade, I'm constantly studying and improving myself.

    As far as proving to the other guy why he's wrong...

    That's a dead horse and I wouldn't waste any time beating it.

  10. #23
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    East Coast FL
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    Certain "shortcuts" can be developed through years of experience. Especially if a technician works on a particular line of equipment often.

    A good chiller mechanic could walk up to a McQuay centrifugal for example , and tell you what the superheat is just by listening and looking briefly.

    Another technician could walk up to a 10 ton split system at a church for example , and witness the condensate line making water , the suction line is sweating right up to the compressor shell and not beyond , comp sounds good , the charge is probably okay on that system , without screwing a gauge on.

    However , attempting to duplicate these shortcuts by persons new to the trade should be avoided. And a more seasoned man should be teaching theory on how it works rather than his assumption.

    And these shortcuts should not be used exclusively by experienced technicians either.

    They are just means of quick checks on familiar systems and equipment.


  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
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    100
    Quote Originally Posted by jdaugrefer View Post
    They say sarcasm is a sign of itneligence, so (I think) is presumption; but not of wisdom.

    First let me say thanks for the warm welcome, you all act as if you are union. I had not thought this was a closed shop. I am just glad I don't drive a foregin car.
    To the point...
    I can see how you could gleen a direction to begin trouble shooting from the compressor temp. too hot it may be over charged or slugging, too cold it may be low on ref. etc... I had never heard of using that as an indicator and was wondering if anyone else had. The tech (who has been around much longer than I) said that the superheat and subcooling would be messed up if the system was not sized correctly. I don't know much about sizing systems, but had not run into a problem like he described. So i was trying to discern from the collective competence of you all if there was any relevance to his assertion. Though it was difficult to pick up on your meaning, I think what i am hearing is that most of you feel his counsel is wanting. Please next time if you want to be direct just say so; say whats on your mind don't be so shy.

    Thanks for all the input.
    All kidding aside, welcome to the site.

    I must sincerely apologies for my earlier opening remark; by no means did I intend to belittle you. I don’t thing anyone was trying to put you down. I figured the tech was putting your leg or you were kidding with us.

    Far too many times I have seen short cuts born from laziness and accidents born from short cuts. I would hate to see anyone fall into that rut. That’s why I said, “Do your job and do it well” & “If you fix part of a system the whole system has your name on it.” It is important to dig to understand why something failed. You can figure out what caused it to fail and how to prevent it from failing prematurely or you can simple be a parts changer. Unfortunately, many are content to be parts changers.

    What the tech told you about using shell temperature. It can help you determine if a fixed bore metering device A/C unit isn’t operating correctly before you check air flow, hook up your gauges, check temperatures, etc. But it really depends on the individual system. If you had a restricted fixed orifice tube or a restricted filter-drier the superheat will be high as will the hermetic shell temperature. I would want to know a lot more that shell temperature before adding refrigerant. An expansion type valve are designed to maintain a consistent superheat. I was taught to take superheat readings on the suction-line 6" from a hermetic compressor. But I prefer to follow the manufacturers guidelines for each specific unit if it's available.

    As stated by jpsmith1cm:
    Rather than learning short cuts, learn the science behind the system.
    Learn WHY superheat and subcooling are the correct metrics for charging.
    Learn about how correct airflow affects these readings.
    Learn to check airflow BEFORE even attempting to adjust or check the charge on a unit.


    Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information on it. That’s why books and manuals are so important. Every man will make mistakes; a wise man will not make the same mistake twice. If you make a mistake, admit it, fix it and learn from it. Education is always ongoing.

    Remember that there are techs from all over the world on this site. While some may put a sugar coating on it, others perfer to be more direct. Sometime you'll read sarcasm where it wasn't intended. I believe that the highly skilled technicians on this site truely mean well, even if it reads otherwise. Again, welcome to the site. Stick around so you can learn and share knowledge.

    Last edited by Saturated Suter; 06-19-2011 at 11:08 PM. Reason: missing word
    "Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort. The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" --- John Ruskin

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Winston-Salem NC
    Posts
    1,133
    Quote Originally Posted by AiResearch View Post
    Certain "shortcuts" can be developed through years of experience. Especially if a technician works on a particular line of equipment often.

    A good chiller mechanic could walk up to a McQuay centrifugal for example , and tell you what the superheat is just by listening and looking briefly.

    Another technician could walk up to a 10 ton split system at a church for example , and witness the condensate line making water , the suction line is sweating right up to the compressor shell and not beyond , comp sounds good , the charge is probably okay on that system , without screwing a gauge on.

    However , attempting to duplicate these shortcuts by persons new to the trade should be avoided. And a more seasoned man should be teaching theory on how it works rather than his assumption.

    And these shortcuts should not be used exclusively by experienced technicians either.

    They are just means of quick checks on familiar systems and equipment.

    A good tech can also pull up to a house with a ****** package heat pump, the day after a hard rain, and know the 24v DC relay is bad, without doing more than seeing the unit from the street.

  13. #26
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    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
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    25,548
    Quote Originally Posted by stonewallred View Post
    A good tech can also pull up to a house with a ****** package heat pump, the day after a hard rain, and know the 24v DC relay is bad, without doing more than seeing the unit from the street.
    I disagree.

    A good tech with experience with certain units might be able to 'guess' what is wrong with it, but a good tech will also TEST and VERIFY what is wrong with it.

    Even if he does put the required part in his pocket before leaving the truck.

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