Ease & Cost of Maintenance, R-22 vs R-410A

[alinnova]

My son is getting bids for a new system in his townhouse, 13 or 14 SEER. HVAC dealers are recommending R-410A instead of R-22. This comes from the Carrier and Bryant guys of course, but also from two Trane dealers. A Lennox dealer is holding out for R-22 over the phone, but he has not shown his face yet.

I know this is a never ending argument. Here's the question. If you have to handle refrigerant in a system as part of routine maintenance or replacement of a coil or valve, which is easier and quicker -- R-22 or R-410A? I suppose time is money.

Now factor in the current prices of the refrigerants, which is less costly to the home owner, bottom line?

Many thanks,
Al

[DeltaT]

Most here would agree that this is a question almost impossible to answer without a crystal ball. But I operate off of common sense and my common sense is still hanging with R22 for the simple fact it will still be around while this sytem is wearing down to the point it will need replacing again in the coming 7 to 12 years. At that time all this refrigerant stuff should have settled down and what works best will finally be known.

Plus you can always buy and extra bottle of 22 at todays prices and set it aside for him if you are worried about price or availability.

[mark beiser]

We always offer both R-22 and R-410a options, unless the customer is interested in a Trane XL19i.

To answer your quiestion, an R-22 system costs less up front and costs less to repair right now.
An R-22 system will cost less to repair in 5 years.
An R-22 system will probably still cost less to repair in 10 years.
We would need DeltaT's crystal ball to tell you wich will cost less to repair in 15-20 years.

I don't find there to be any difference in difficulty in servicing or repairing an R-22 system or an R-410a system. Virtually all of the procedures for servicing and repairing R-410a systems are identical to what everyone should have been doing for any refrigeration system all along, regardless of the refrigerant used.

As for me personally, if I was installing a system in my own home today, it would not be an R-410a system.
I won't condidder R-410a equipment for myself untill both the outdoor and indoor units are designed from the ground up for R-410a.
To my knowledge, there are only 2 pieces of equipment on the market currently that were specifically designed for R-410a. Trane makes a 4 ton and a 5 ton air handler with coil that has small diameter tubing and a PSC motor in a new style blower housing.
All the rest of the equipment that is currently being used for R-410a is basicly just R-22 equipment with different compressors and metering devices.

I know Trane has some changes in the works, and rummor here is that Carrier has some new stuff coming out next year. I would assume that other manufacturers do also.

I believe that when we start seeing more equipment engineered and manufactured specifically for R-410a, we will also see the physical size of the equipment go down. Higher efficiency R-410a equipment may even end up being physically smaller than 10 SEER R-22 equipment.

[fromdesmoines]

Originally posted by mark beiser

As for me personally, if I was installing a system in my own home today, it would not be an R-410a system.
I won't condidder R-410a equipment for myself untill both the outdoor and indoor units are designed from the ground up for R-410a.
To my knowledge, there are only 2 pieces of equipment on the market currently that were specifically designed for R-410a. Trane makes a 4 ton and a 5 ton air handler with coil that has small diameter tubing and a PSC motor in a new style blower housing.
All the rest of the equipment that is currently being used for R-410a is basicly just R-22 equipment with different compressors and metering devices.

I know Trane has some changes in the works, and rummor here is that Carrier has some new stuff coming out next year. I would assume that other manufacturers do also.[/B]

How many other professional members agree with the above quote? Would you consider Rheem R410a systems as "designed from the ground up for R-410a"?

Also, at one point some people thought that formicary corrosion was more likely to occur, or was more of a problem, with R410a than with R22. On the other hand, if formicary corrosion begins on the outside of the coil, it seems very odd that anyone would even make the claim its related to the refrigerant inside.

Finally, I'm thinking about getting a R410a system from a contractor who says he has only done one other R410a installation. How many R410a systems does a contractor need to install in order to become "competent" at doing them?

[alinnova]

Originally posted by fromdesmoines

Finally, I'm thinking about getting a R410a system from a contractor who says he has only done one other R410a installation. How many R410a systems does a contractor need to install in order to become "competent" at doing them?

As a fellow homeowner, and only if I liked the idea of dealing with that contractor for any system now and down the road, I would ask him if he and his crew have just come out of training by the manufacturer. Where's his certificate?

I would also ask for a complete, 10 year parts and labor warranty by the manufacturer. These warrantys are sometimes advertised as free with certain systems. In my son's case that I mentioned when I started this thread, the Bryant dealer that he selected first offered the manufacturer's rebate. What happened is that they converted that rebate into the 10 year parts and labor.

Why be careful? The installers have to learn to work with new techiques. Some contractors just never wanted to change from their old ways, but now they have to.

Al

[AllTemp]

Myself R410....
Mfg's are geared up for it and their best equiment is being mfg for it.... You only find it in the high end stuff with all the bells and whistles... And a better warranty on high seer Puron/R410 equipment...

They sure are quiet in comparisomto the old R22 systems... Fact an R410 system is more expensive and cost more to service... Puron vs R22 curretnly is some $$$$$ I jsut service a Carrier 38TDB060 I installed in November 2002, she was flat I have a leak some where, cusotmers not going to like the tune of 13+ pounds of Puron....

But they have loved the efficency and quiet that comes with owning the Puron system.

My vote technology...Puron/R410

You get what you pay for old technolopgy or new.... the systems are being designed for the future.

[AllTemp]

Originally posted by AllTemp
Myself R410....
Mfg's are geared up for it and their best equiment is being mfg for it.... You only find it in the high end stuff with all the bells and whistles... And a better warranty on high seer Puron/R410 equipment...

They sure are quiet in comparisomto the old R22 systems... Fact an R410 system is more expensive and cost more to service... Puron vs R22 curretnly is some $$$$$ I jsut service a Carrier 38TDB060 I installed in November 2002, she was flat I have a leak some where, cusotmers not going to like the tune of 13+ pounds of Puron....

But they have loved the efficency and quiet that comes with owning the Puron system.

My vote technology...Puron/R410

You get what you pay for old technolopgy or new.... the systems are being designed for the future.

I think there is a hidden reluctance because of a lack of knowledge and experience... We've been doing R410 for a long time...

[4x4freak]

My dad has been installing the Bryant Purons since they came out. So far he has only had one compressor go out, and he thinks that lightening probably got it. The compressors are heavier duty and the tubing in the condensing unit is thicker to handle the higher pressures. I dont know much about the evap. coils. The only problem I've seen with them is the service valves are prone to leak if not sealed properly and I know of one coil that sprung a leak and had to be replaced.

I have worked on a few myself and they are easy. You just need different gauges that will work with higher pressure.

[rcp]

R410a is composed of two gases that will leak out at different rates. If you get a R410a system that develops a leak, the entire refrigerant charge would have to recovered and replaced with new R410a after the leak has been repaired.

R22 doesn't turn into something other than R22 when it has a leak and doesn't have this problem.

Edit, after doing a google search, it looks as if R410a can be topped off after repairing a leak! I was wrong!


[Edited by rcp on 11-02-2005 at 01:21 AM]

[beenthere]

Originally posted by DeltaT


Plus you can always buy and extra bottle of 22 at todays prices and set it aside for him if you are worried about price or availability.

He's a retired computer specialist, how is he going to buy a jug of 22 to set aside for his son.

[troyorr]

rcp, you need to go back and reread about fractionaztion of R410A and the charging procedures.

[troyorr]

rcp, whoops, I just reread your post and saw your edit. I humbly apologize for my statement. No offense ment.

[dash]

Originally posted by AllTemp
Myself R410....
Mfg's are geared up for it and their best equiment is being mfg for it.... You only find it in the high end stuff with all the bells and whistles... And a better warranty on high seer Puron/R410 equipment...

They sure are quiet in comparisomto the old R22 systems... Fact an R410 system is more expensive and cost more to service... Puron vs R22 curretnly is some $$$$$ I jsut service a Carrier 38TDB060 I installed in November 2002, she was flat I have a leak some where, cusotmers not going to like the tune of 13+ pounds of Puron....

But they have loved the efficency and quiet that comes with owning the Puron system.

My vote technology...Puron/R410

You get what you pay for old technolopgy or new.... the systems are being designed for the future.

Carrier has had builder models over a year,38EY and EZ,no bells or whistles,so check the features before you buy.