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  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Colorado flatland native
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    Quote Originally Posted by Motel Guy View Post
    I had a tech come and service my AC the other day and he put R410 refrigerant in in my R22 system. He said you can mix up to 20% as long as you keep the pressures in line. Is this true ? He said the real problem is the oils and when you add refrigerant you are not adding oil. Is that right ? Sounds fishy to me. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.


    If you dont mind.... did it work???

    Make him recover and recharge it out of a GREEN can, but I'm still curious.
    My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
    Walter Matthau

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Louisville, KY
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    2

    different oils, really?

    I bought a "universal" capsule of dye with POE, said to be compatible with R-22. After I introduced it two heat pump TXV valves closed down (each a year old). Its possible they had their own troubles, but the timing was suspicious. The question stands though. Is it really OK to mix oils?

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    2,781
    I see a new compressor in your future!

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Marshalltown, IA (The new rainforest)
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    699
    I agree with the new compressor, mixing 410a and 22 usually leads to one dead compressor because the POE absorbs moisture, the moisture makes the oil in the 22 turn acidic and burns up the compressor.

    But then again, not much experience here, just saw the one completely grind to a halt.
    "It's not an OLD unit, it's a testament to old school manufacturing of quality over quantity." http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...608_092209.jpg

  5. #31
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Las Vegas, Nevada
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    100
    Quote Originally Posted by the mojo View Post
    With those two common gases, he would be in the wrong. I wouldn't even let him mix oxygen and acetylene!
    But EPA does allow you to mix,if and only if you can't get your hands on the original refrigerant. What?
    The EPA allows a refrigerant manufacturer to mix refrigerants in an attemp to get approval for a new refrigerant. The EPA will allow you to; pay for the reclaim, document & store forever or pay to destroy 2 different field mixed refrigerants. If something has changed and the EPA is now allowing field mixing, please post that regulation ASAP. Thank you.
    Last edited by Saturated Suter; 06-06-2011 at 08:19 PM. Reason: change my statement to a different color than the original post
    "Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort. The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" --- John Ruskin

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    98
    Quote Originally Posted by whoward View Post
    Is this guy crazy!!!!!!!!!!!

    The oils are different, the pressures are different, and the copper used to make the coils is different. Never let this close to anyone you care about ever again.

    We cannot even use the same gauges with these two refrigerants because of the differences. This is so crazy it is almost absurd!!
    I agree with this compleatly...If there's a alowance of mixture between the two...why have we been running new line sets for the last few years..

  7. #33
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    Sep 2008
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    Western PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMACCGrad11 View Post
    I agree with the new compressor, mixing 410a and 22 usually leads to one dead compressor because the POE absorbs moisture, the moisture makes the oil in the 22 turn acidic and burns up the compressor.

    But then again, not much experience here, just saw the one completely grind to a halt.
    Could you explain, please, how virgin refrigerant from a cylinder will have a different oil in it? Or ANY oil in it for that matter?

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Marshalltown, IA (The new rainforest)
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    699
    Agreed Whoward and BRnGT!

    There's a reason we run new lineset (or flush old lineset in special cases), have a special set of gauges, and have to ensure to not mix the two together!

    idiots!
    "It's not an OLD unit, it's a testament to old school manufacturing of quality over quantity." http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...608_092209.jpg

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
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    where the beer flows like wine
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    2,871
    Quote Originally Posted by Saturated Suter View Post
    The EPA allows a refrigerant manufacturer to mix refrigerants in an attemp to get approval for a new refrigerant. The EPA will allow you to; pay for the reclaim, document & store forever or pay to destroy 2 different field mixed refrigerants. If something has changed and the EPA is now allowing field mixing, please post that regulation ASAP. Thank you.
    EPA has no business regulating the mixing of refrigerants, oils or thermostats. last time I checked EPA stands for environmental protection agency and its main function was to protect the environment (and as a tool to execute political vendettas) anyhow mixing refrigerants in the field is nothing new especially with low and ultra low temp. refrigeration.

    I'm not a big fan of big government, its regulations and bureaucratic agencies to me EPA amounts to a big waste of taxpayers dollars same with that monstrosity called "homeland security", thank you Nixon and Bush finest of the finest

  10. #36
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    Aug 2010
    Location
    Marshalltown, IA (The new rainforest)
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    Could you explain, please, how virgin refrigerant from a cylinder will have a different oil in it? Or ANY oil in it for that matter?
    Well okay I guess that was a gaffe on my part. At the worst, fractionation will make it a PITA to fix and still shell the compressor!

    Either way it's a hell of a bad idea and should never be done and anyone who does should get 5000 lashes with a wet boat rope and publicly humiliated in a way to determine later.

    I would wonder if this person even HAS an EPA license! Seriously, the first couple months of school was talking about the differences in refrigerant and oils and why you should NEVER mix either of the two. WTFrench Toast is this guy thinking!?

    Seriously?? It's on the frakking nameplate for crying out loud, and if you can't read the damn nameplate, the unit is old enough to at least require R-22!

    It's been a long day in the heat here and mental faculties are not all present...it's like I've had beer...but my fridge is sadly barren!
    "It's not an OLD unit, it's a testament to old school manufacturing of quality over quantity." http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/m...608_092209.jpg

  11. #37
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    Sep 2008
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    Western PA
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    I will ask again.

    How does fractionation enter into this?

    I'm not disagreeing that it is a foolish and wrong thing to do, but let us get our reasons correct, please

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    98
    I'm going to keep useing dedicated gauges..and replaceing linesets..if you don't do this..if anything go'es wrong...you will be married to this mixture for the life of the unit..No Thanks!!,

  13. #39
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Las Vegas, Nevada
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    100
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacpope View Post
    EPA has no business regulating the mixing of refrigerants, oils or thermostats.
    Who is authorized to approve new refrigerants in the USA?
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacpope View Post
    last time I checked EPA stands for environmental protection agency and its main function was to protect the environment (and as a tool to execute political vendettas)
    Was asbestos regulation a political vendetta?
    Quote Originally Posted by hvacpope View Post
    anyhow mixing refrigerants in the field is nothing new especially with low and ultra low temp. refrigeration.
    I'm aware of the INTERNATIONAL MECHANICAL CODE: 1102.2.1 Mixing. Refrigerants, including refrigerant blends, with different designations in ASHRAE 34 shall not be mixed in a system.
    Exception: Addition of a second refrigerant is allowed where permitted by the equipment or appliance manufacturer to improve oil return at low temperatures. The refrigerant and amount added shall be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
    Key phrase: "The refrigerant and amount added shall be in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions."
    What manufacturer has instructed us to mix R-22 with R-410a?



    Quote Originally Posted by hvacpope View Post
    I'm not a big fan of big government, its regulations and bureaucratic agencies to me EPA amounts to a big waste of taxpayers dollars same with that monstrosity called "homeland security", thank you Nixon and Bush finest of the finest
    I understand what you're saying. But let em figure out the special applications when they get hired to do that type of work.
    Fine, mix the refrigerants. So long as you change the equipment plate to read what is truely in the system, Kudos to you. I will then know not to recover the charge with my equipment. It will have to be reclaimed, stored forever or destroyed at what expense.

    I'm just saying... The charge in question should be recovered and the correct refrigerant should be used to recharge the system. We all make mistakes, correct them and learn from them. So how do you know what your saturation pressure/temperature is if you've field mixed refrigerants. I'm not talking about blended refrigerants.
    "Quality is never an accident; it is always the result of intelligent effort. The bitterness of poor quality lingers long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten" --- John Ruskin

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