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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    56

    Hmm

    Help! I'm trying to make the difficult choice between HP's with advice from "sales guys". These thing's ain't cheap so I figure it is worth careful thought. No offence to the sales guys out there - but let's just say they all say different things and it is hard to make sense of it.

    So here goes, I am looking a 3 models from Lennox: HPX12, HPX15 and HPX16 - there is a pretty big span in pricing, the 16 is nearly 50% more than the 12 - and I'm not sure it is worth it. I would really appreciate any advice from the pros. Here are the facts:

    1) I am located in Montreal, Canada, 2000sqft house.
    2) recommended unit size is 3tons
    3) I have a new G61V lennox furnace
    4) Elec rates here in Quebec are cheap, for comparison, we pay about 1/3rd the rate of someone in Calif, and in addition, HQ gives consumer a 40% discount on power when the temp is above -12C (ie, 75%+ of the year)

    HPX12 vs 15: Really, the only real benefit I see between the 12 and 15 is efficiency. Now, I figure we pay low elec rates so at best the cost difference is going to be $50-100 in operating/year. The cost diff between these two units (installed is $600). The 15 is a little quieter as well, but just 1dB. So I don't really see a strong argument for going for the 15 over the 12.

    What the sales guy says: One sales guy told me the HPX12 is a discontinued (or soon to be) model and is 2X more expensive to service. Even if this is true, why does that matter, it is warranteed by Lennox and even if I bought the HPX15 and it 7yrs it breaks, it will probably not be a current model at the time anyway. So why does this matter.

    As for the noise issue, one sales guy said the 12 has nearly the same dB as the 15 - but the 12 was higher pitched and "sounded" noiser. (ok, this sounds like complete crap to me, but I figure, why not ask the pros).

    HPX15 vs HPX16: Ok, the 16 is a lot more efficient than the 15 or 12. And it is 2 stage - which is good. Maybe that would save me $200/yr at best. However, this unit is a lot more expensive, nearly $2000 more than the HPX12. So the cost difference would take 10yrs to pay back or more. Other than efficiency, I really don't see a lot of advantage to going with a 2 stage unit.

    What the sales guy says: I have a 2 stage furnace so I should go with a 2 stage HP? He really could not justify why, but that was his argument.

    Based on the above I figure just go with the HPX12, it is good equipment from a reputable supplier, the efficiency differences of the more costly units would take many years to pay back (I figure if pay back is more than 5 years it is not worth it).

    What would you do?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,339
    The 2 stage equipment will be pricey and not pay you back in your area.

    I never liked the Lennox cubes. Murder to work on and can be noisy. Relatives have one and it is plus lost the comp already as have most of their neighbors. So far haven't got a straight answer why.

    The deluxe cabinet is about as quiet as you can get and with the comp in the back compartment, so much easier to work on. Probably considerably more money too.

    I'd buy a different brand since you asked what I'd do

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    9,548
    Atta Boy!!!! Get some other quotes from other brands,unless Lennox is the only brand sold in your area.
    If everything was always done "by the book"....the book would never change.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    I also agree. I would like to comment on the sound. The units are rated by sound in decibells or bells which is nothing more than a decimal point in describing the difference. 3 decibells is roughly half the sound. Now this sound is actually known as sound pressure and sound pressure doesnt tell you what the type of sound will be. I'm not sure he gave you a real line of crap but probably didnt know how to explain it.

    Now, here in the states, we sometimes have rebates available from the utilities for the higher efficiency stuff. I would look into that in Canada as well. It may close the gap in pricing from a net perspective.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    56
    I think pretty much all the models available in the US are available here. The Lennox models are about 72-73dB - which seems pretty reasonable to me - same as the Carrier Infinity series (72dB), same as Ruud Achiever Series.

    So what system (3 ton unit) is substantially quieter than 72dB?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,327
    Originally posted by afree
    Help! I'm trying to make the difficult choice between HP's with advice from "sales guys".

    So here goes, I am looking a 3 models from Lennox: HPX12, HPX15 and HPX16 - there is a pretty big span in pricing, the 16 is nearly 50% more than the 12 - and I'm not sure it is worth it. I would really appreciate any advice from the pros. Here are the facts:

    1) I am located in Montreal, Canada, 2000sqft house.
    2) recommended unit size is 3tons
    3) I have a new G61V lennox furnace
    4) Elec rates here in Quebec are cheap, for comparison, we pay about 1/3rd the rate of someone in Calif, and in addition, HQ gives consumer a 40% discount on power when the temp is above -12C (ie, 75%+ of the year)
    What would you do?
    How much savings is there during the heating season?

    What is the installation cost difference between a Heat Pump and a straight cooling unit?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    56
    Well, I originally set out to buy an AC, after further research it looks like I can save something like $700 to $800/yr on heating costs (I live in Montreal, we pay a lot for heating, my Nat gas costs last year were $2000). The price difference for the HP over AC is $1500 - so it makes a lot of sense to go for an HP. And I figure Nat Gas prices are not going down, so it will make even more sense in a few years. Elec rates don't climb as fast (in our area) and the elec utility sells you elec at a 40% discount if you have dual fuel when the temp is above -12C (ie, 75% of the year at least you get a 40% discount on elec). I figured worse case the payback was 3 years.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    I don't know
    Posts
    2,905
    Heatpump efficiency declines drastically as the outdoor temperature drops - after a specific point (32F or 0C perhaps?). You'll still need to run the furnace a lot of the time, since the outdoor temperature is below the balance point during most of the winder.

    [Edited by amd on 09-03-2005 at 01:00 AM]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    No a heat pump is always efficient, its capacity falls. This is why there is auxiliary heat, beit gas or electric or oil. What this guy fails to realize is you will use NO gas until you reach that balance point and that you dont spend 6 months of the year below it.

    That is the clear reason Heat pumps are misunderstood. Its really sort of a shame that even "experts" fail to understand the difference in the definitions of comfort, efficiency, and capacity or somehow try to mix the words or use them interchangably.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    56
    From what I have read, HPs have an efficiency of 300% (ie, they generate 3x the heat times the power you put in) at 12C and drop down to 100% at around -12C (ie, they simply generate the same amount of heat as the energy you put in). Hence, below -12C the HP shuts down and the furnace takes over. For our climate that means the HP is doing at 80% of the heating.

    I'd like to come back to my original questions if anyone else has an opinion on this:

    Does it really make sense to spend nearly $2000 extra on the higher end HPX16 over the HPX12 - I doubt I'll ever see the payback in terms of efficiency (17SEER vs 14SEER) since we pay pretty low elec rates here and get a 40% discount when using duel energy.

    Are there any other reasons for going with the HPX15 over the 12 - ie, noise, reliability, etc?

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