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  1. #1
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    Is KY defying the 4th Amendment?

    I have several different viewpoints about this issue, so I would like to know the views of others. A pretty far to the right publication notified me that this case is the end of the world for the U.S.......again. But, I have certain reservations about both sides of this argument.

    Here is the deal;
    Police do not need a search warrant if, after knocking on a closed door and announcing their presence, they discern that evidence of a crime is being destroyed on the other side, the US Supreme Court ruled Monday.
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...on-of-evidence

    And here is the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution;
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_...s_Constitution


    I am not really savy on how long it takes for police to obtain a warrant. I do however, see where this issue can really be abused by police. It seems to me that the Supreme Court has only made a ruling on this one instance, which truthfully, there is not enough specific data for me to determine one way or the other if I think the police did the right thing.

    If the police had heard screams of terror or pain, should they not be able to intrude without a warrant? Then again, since I don't think drug use should be illegal, I just cannot justify breaking into a house because of drug use for any reason.

    Thoughts please.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    I have several different viewpoints about this issue, so I would like to know the views of others. A pretty far to the right publication notified me that this case is the end of the world for the U.S.......again. But, I have certain reservations about both sides of this argument.

    Here is the deal; http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice...on-of-evidence[/COLOR]

    And here is the Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_...s_Constitution

    I am not really savy on how long it takes for police to obtain a warrant. I do however, see where this issue can really be abused by police. It seems to me that the Supreme Court has only made a ruling on this one instance, which truthfully, there is not enough specific data for me to determine one way or the other if I think the police did the right thing.

    If the police had heard screams of terror or pain, should they not be able to intrude without a warrant? Then again, since I don't think drug use should be illegal, I just cannot justify breaking into a house because of drug use for any reason.

    Thoughts please.
    Heavy subject. Why can't idiots just leave drugs alone? They are expensive, hurt your body and mind and get you into a world of hurt if caught with it. I don't need any and have gotten along all my life without them.

    For a quick high you pay for it on the downside either by becoming lazy, ruining brain cells, hurting your genes, DNA, becoming bi polar and other mental problems such as depression and in some cases life long dependence on antipsychotic drugs for the rest of your life in order to just function in a minimal way.

    The loss of rights while a problem pales to what drugs do to you in my opinion. I agree that they shouldn't lock folks up for taking them and throwing away the key for those dealing in small quantities. Wish the Beatles never came along and helped launched the drug revolution along with the hippie movement. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  3. #3
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    Anybody? Nobody has any thoughts on "WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!?

    http://www.youtube.com/v/llrAemrsKG0...</param><param
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Anybody? Nobody has any thoughts on "WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT!?

    http://www.youtube.com/v/llrAemrsKG0...</param><param
    Yeah the 4th Amenment to the Constitution and you gave an exampe of the police breaking into a house with illegal drugs with out a search warrant.

    Well I addressed that in my way first by saying drugs do you a lot of harm personally and it matches the harm done to you by the violation of your rights against unreasonable searches. I think they should give you treatment not incarceration. Now they have always been allowed to break into a home if they see evidence of harm being done to someone else.

    The difference here is the distruction of evidence. I think they should because we don't pay them to ignore what they can observe and just walk away get a warrant and then come back and everything is clean. My question is still why do they have to mess with this stuff in the first place regardless of the loss of "rights". Ok I threw the Beatles in there because I believe right or wrong they helped jump start it . Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  5. #5
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    I really am sooo busy, I do not want to get too involved with too many threads...

    What I see at stake here is freedom and liberty. IMO we as a nation are more worried about the wrong things... examples of the wrong things:
    1) Whether someone is mentally competent to stand trial... they did the crime, they do the time... PERIOD.
    2) Giving the 'authorities' power to solve things without any checks and balances.. just want until that authority screws you to the wall... and there is literally NOTHING you can do about it.
    3) Trusting government to act in our best interest while the facts say they could care less about anything other than their wallets and power... History is replete with examples of crooked govts, yet few examples of good govts... and all the good govts went to h*ll. When will we choose to open our eyes and quit blindly trusting?

    Now a few right things to worry about:
    1) We should NEVER trust a govt... never!
    2) We should be more involved in day to day govt... asking questions and demanding answers.
    3) We should show up at rallies, and ask seriously embarrassing questions, being sure the media hears them.
    4) We should learn what the founding fathers intended for the country (learn from wise folks).
    5) With the knowledge in #4 above, we should carefully yet thoroughly teach our friends and peers to understand what is right and what is wrong.
    The rest will happen on its own when folks understand.

    OK Robo, is that enough to start things?

    Oh, one more thing: How about lets define Liberty... both what the founding fathers meant, and what it has been spun into today...
    Might be a good discussion.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Yeah the 4th Amenment to the Constitution and you gave an exampe of the police breaking into a house with illegal drugs with out a search warrant.

    Well I addressed that in my way first by saying drugs do you a lot of harm personally and it matches the harm done to you by the violation of your rights against unreasonable searches. I think they should give you treatment not incarceration. Now they have always been allowed to break into a home if they see evidence of harm being done to someone else.

    The difference here is the distruction of evidence. I think they should because we don't pay them to ignore what they can observe and just walk away get a warrant and then come back and everything is clean. My question is still why do they have to mess with this stuff in the first place regardless of the loss of "rights". Ok I threw the Beatles in there because I believe right or wrong they helped jump start it . Thank you, thank you very much
    Not sure if I am reading you correctly Glenn, however:

    If I am reading that yes, the police should have the power to violate the 4th amendment... then you and I are in serious disagreement.

    Crime will resolve itself if citizens are allowed to live in freedom and liberty... and defend themselves.

    To think the govt has to resolve crime... is kinda like putting the fox in charge of the hen-house.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #7
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    Sometimes I think we have lost a simple thing called common sense, and a sense of what's right and wrong. How do you dicern a crime is being committed through a closed door? Screaming? Maybe it's the T.V. Too much potential for abuse. If you're a cop at the door and you think something bad is happening inside, kick the door in and deal with it. If there are consequences for doing the right thing, so be it. We are allowing our grandmothers, mothers, wives and babies to be molested at airports for the sake of a sense security. Ifeel that if we continue to sacrifice our freedoms for a sense of security
    we will in time find we have neither.

  8. #8
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    OK, so Glenn feels that the Fourth Amendment allows for police to break and enter without a warrant if they hear Beatle's music playing. Got it.

    GA, I agree that government is not very affective at protecting citizens, but are you suggesting we have no criminal laws at all? What about the Fourth Amendment stating that with probable cause of a crime being commited that a warrant for search and seizure be issued?

    One could get serious whiplash looking back and forth between these two views
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Not sure if I am reading you correctly Glenn, however:

    If I am reading that yes, the police should have the power to violate the 4th amendment... then you and I are in serious disagreement.

    Crime will resolve itself if citizens are allowed to live in freedom and liberty... and defend themselves.

    To think the govt has to resolve crime... is kinda like putting the fox in charge of the hen-house.
    Funny the 4th Amendment protects you against "unreasonable" searches. If you are violating the law and the police have good reason to believe that you are currently violating the law at that moment then it would not be in my opinion be "unreasonable" according the the amendment to kick in your door and search your house.

    If you feel different then get another amendment to say that before they can search your house they need to get a search warrant even if they know there is illegal activity going on. That makes sense to me and therefore I have to disagree with you. Now we can agree that they should not lock up drug users and treat them instead but not on the principle of what is considered "reasonable" or "unreasonable". Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by twosticks View Post
    Sometimes I think we have lost a simple thing called common sense, and a sense of what's right and wrong. How do you dicern a crime is being committed through a closed door? Screaming? Maybe it's the T.V. Too much potential for abuse. If you're a cop at the door and you think something bad is happening inside, kick the door in and deal with it. If there are consequences for doing the right thing, so be it. We are allowing our grandmothers, mothers, wives and babies to be molested at airports for the sake of a sense security. Ifeel that if we continue to sacrifice our freedoms for a sense of security
    we will in time find we have neither.
    It sounds like you have the same dilemna about the Fourth Amendment that I have. I don't want it to be able to be abused by police but I don't want it to hinder the police from preventing violent crime to continue.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  11. #11
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    Knock and talks are a common police tactic used to intimidate a person they suspect is doing something illegal usually pot smokers as they are the easiest to bust because they use the odor as evidence to gain "legal entry".
    Most of the knock and talks are initiated from informants who have been offered some lenient deal if they turn someone in.
    So most people caught up in these searches are usually low level pot smokers not big time dealers who are harder to catch.
    Bottom line if you smoke pot keep the odor in check and if they do knock don't panic and run around fluhing toilets etc and hope you have honest cops on the other side of the door because they can always say they heard some unusual activity and who do you believe the pot smoker or the police.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by glennac View Post
    Funny the 4th Amendment protects you against "unreasonable" searches. If you are violating the law and the police have good reason to believe that you are currently violating the law at that moment then it would not be in my opinion be "unreasonable" according the the amendment to kick in your door and search your house.

    If you feel different then get another amendment to say that before they can search your house they need to get a search warrant even if they know there is illegal activity going on. That makes sense to me and therefore I have to disagree with you. Now we can agree that they should not lock up drug users and treat them instead but not on the principle of what is considered "reasonable" or "unreasonable". Thank you, thank you very much
    OK, this is sort of what I was thinking about the first part of the amendment as well. It is one big run on sentence, so the intent of several thoughts on action is difficult to discern.

    However, why would the designer's of this amendment bother to mention the unreasonable part if a warrant was going to be needed no matter what.

    I suppose that the officers need to make that decision at the moment and be subject to a judges decision of whether or not the action by the officer falls under the "reasonable" term or if the officer should have obtained a warrant.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by captube View Post
    Knock and talks are a common police tactic used to intimidate a person they suspect is doing something illegal usually pot smokers as they are the easiest to bust because they use the odor as evidence to gain "legal entry".
    Most of the knock and talks are initiated from informants who have been offered some lenient deal if they turn someone in.
    So most people caught up in these searches are usually low level pot smokers not big time dealers who are harder to catch.
    Bottom line if you smoke pot keep the odor in check and if they do knock don't panic and run around fluhing toilets etc and hope you have honest cops on the other side of the door because they can always say they heard some unusual activity and who do you believe the pot smoker or the police.
    Again, it just seems ridiculous to me that it is worth the cost of a door and the time that police are taken away from being available for violent crimes for police to even bother a few pot smokers or even hard drug users.

    But, since this is still the law, a good point is brought up here. Any cop can claim anything they want in order to bust down someone's door. This seems to me to be the reason for the Fourth Amendment.

    Once again though, the more laws we have, the more freedom we lose. When laws create criminals for situations where there is no victim, those laws are not in the best interest of the freedom of citizens.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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