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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,122
    O and by the way don't get me wrong they do have there good points there pretty.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,122
    Man Kevin I went back and read some of your old posts are you in lust with your system? or do you work for Trane? is Trane paying you?, it's got to be one of the above.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    435
    Mrbill nope don't work for Trane and never plan too. But since I did my homework before buying I feel any thing I have learned on this system when someone asks I should try and help.

    Now as far as your comment the old systems were good for dehumidification, sure if you turn the thermo way down so they would run longer, in fact you had to because I could not live with the comfort level any of the old systems I had at a setpoint of 79 degrees as I do with my current system! You can't tell me that a system that cycles on and off throughout the day dehumidifies as well as one that runs longer!
    That's not BS! It seems you are anti-newer technology, under that premis we should have kept the model "A" Ford!

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,122
    Originally posted by kevinmac
    It seems you are anti-newer technology, under that premis we should have kept the model "A" Ford!
    So with that attitude I guess you like your Ribs cook in the microwave? I like mine the old model-t way on the grille.


    No not anti-newer technology there are just some things that were fine just as they were, seems if the world is not on the "cutting edge" of anything folks tend to feel left out, well I don't! I like a lot of the old ideas and contrary to popular belief some still work.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Correct

    Originally posted by bgaston
    I didn't however, think that the system should still be trying to maintain a 77 set point continously at 10pm at night. I would have thought the heat load on the house would have been long gone.
    Right, Peak Sun is gone but there's still a lot of "residual heat" and the outside temperature
    is NOT dropping much,
    a few degrees before midnight.

    However, consider the alternate set-up,
    a Single-stage unit will likely
    stay on till nearly 8 pm somedays
    running "@ ~2 X the single capacity".

    Have a great time with your Modern Comfort!
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,122

    Re: Correct

    Originally posted by dan sw fl
    However, consider the alternate set-up,
    a Single-stage unit will likely
    stay on till nearly 8 pm somedays
    running "@ ~2 X the single capacity".
    Gotta love a salesman! I have one of those old "well 12 seer" RUUD systems that's old for today and I will put my electric bill "per hr use" up to any two stage 19 seer system and I bet you mine will be less in Texas, Why because I am still taking out more latent, because when your unit is on full blast trying to just cool down the home it's primary job at that point is sensible, then when it gets caught up it can work on the latent, facts or facts more air flow less latent less air flow more latent or has that changed with modern comfort?

    Airman1 can explain all that to you if you need understanding on this.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    435
    Hang up your gauges! Because anyone that can say their single stage system dehumidifies better just doesn't understand the concept, or has not installed one correctly! If the system is sized correctly it will run on low continious for about 85% of the time. Low as in small compressor, low CFM. It will only click on high when it starts creeping off the setpoint. Now go take your single stage system and let it run on high every 10 to 15 minutes throughout the day with a much higher air flow than the newer sytems on stage 1. Guess what the two stage under low cfm will have run longer on low than your single stage full force air slinger and cost less to run! I have the proof in my bill and my overall comfort. You can't tell me Texas is more humid than S Fla!

    [Edited by kevinmac on 08-16-2005 at 05:28 PM]

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Houston,Tx.
    Posts
    16,122
    Originally posted by kevinmac
    [B or has not installed one correctly! If the system is sized correctly [/B]
    And I guess all you have installed you change out all the ductwork also? because if not 90% of the time it will not be installed correctly for 100% performance, and I said if you slow down and take a deep breath that when "I know it all" I will hang up my gauges I never have said that, but I do understand the concept probably better than you if you think for one minute that the VS two stage stuff your selling your are doing you customer any justice if the duct work is not either changed or corrected to get you moneys worth, your still only half a$$ing it in.
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

    "Never let success go to your head, and never let failure go to your heart". - Unknown

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Long runtimes

    >> I didn't however, think that the system should still be trying to maintain a 77 set point
    >>continously at 10pm at night. I would have thought the heat load on the house would have benn long gone.

    I have been measuring on-time using a data logger, and also have seen the load does not taper off until well after sundown. It does not really surprise me to see 10pm running. Can't really explain it, but the explanation others give sounds reasonable.

    I've put a thermometer probe in the attic and see that it takes quite a long while to cool down. Ten o'clock and the attic is still pretty hot, here in S.Texas.

    Based on what I've always heard, the older AC systems tended to be good at humidity removal, and later hi-SEER systems *sometimes* are lousy at it. That makes sense when you realize the SEER is a lab number measured at conditions very unlike the real world of the hot-humid South. Isn't SEER measured at something like 81 degrees outside temperature, and low humidity? Would be nice if that *were* our outdoor climate...

    It's a principle of management -- when you measure something you get results, when you don't measure then you will tend not to. When you make SEER the goal for advertising, one would expect a certain amount of back-sliding in those qualities not measured. Think about this hypothetical: if a maker could make 16 SEER with good humidity removal, or 18 SEER with mediocre humidity removal, which is going to look better on paper? Unless the customer (or contractor) is really savvy. Some are, some aren't.

    It's great to read people's testimonials about the XL-19. Especially when it's working like it's supposed to. Some day soon I will have to replace an AC and was wondering whether the top-of-the-line is worth the money. There are other excellent brands, but the rest of my own system is Trane/Am.Std and it looks simpler to keep it in the family. Just wish Trane would leapfrog Carrier's Infinity control system somehow<g>.

    Best wishes -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 08-16-2005 at 07:34 PM]

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    GEORGIA
    Posts
    1,532
    Originally posted by mrbillpro
    Bring back the old 7-8 and 9 seer's any day that is when a/c was a/c seems we never had the cooling complaints like today, when I got a call back then the a/c was either low on charge or out you would charge it up or repair it and seems you would never hear from the customer for ever, what's happened? the Goverment mandates high efficient, high seer crap to keep the power companys from having to build more power plants thats the norm look out for big business that is the Governments
    job. My light bill is higher than ever go figure!

    [Edited by mrbillpro on 08-16-2005 at 09:18 AM]
    Yes Mr. Bill,

    Too much Too soon..maybe new construction should be at lest 14..

    This will make the media news about this time, next year..

    The front story for all networks today was..GAS PRICES ARE HIGH..duh huh..

    Stephen
    "Value our Differences"

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Re: Long runtimes

    Originally posted by perpetual_student
    >> I have been measuring on-time

    using a data logger,

    and also have seen the load does not taper off until well after sundown. It does not really surprise me to see 10pm running. Can't really explain it, but the explanation others give sounds reasonable.

    I've put a thermometer probe in the attic and see that it takes quite a long while to cool down. Ten o'clock and the attic is still pretty hot, here in S.Texas.

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 08-16-2005 at 07:34 PM]
    So, WHAT IS the A/C power usage 24/ 7?
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    4H: Hot, Humid Houston H.O.
    Posts
    3,304

    Could you rephrase...?

    Designer Dan,

    I could probably answer your question except I don't yet understand it. There are two systems in my house and for either of them, could provide a data file of 8000+ temperature measurements, one per minute for 5-1/2 days. Surely you don't want that. I condense that dataset, looking to identify just what the percent on-time really is for that significant near-peak day of the year. For a typical hot summer day (most of which resemble one another near Houston) I am getting 77% duty cycle in the most extreme hour observed for one system. For the other system, over 100%. I have observed one period of running non-stop a little over 2 hours. That seems to prove to my satisfaction that one system could be a little smaller for best sizing. The other system doesn't have much margin of "safety" unless I can make the building envelope have less heat gain.

    It occurs to me I don't need to look at duty cycle measured in any one hour (s/b 100% if properly sized), but maybe 4 hours. Anyone have opinions on that matter?

    Overall I seem to be burning about 80 kwh/day this year, compared with 90 kwh/day last summer. In a typical summer in the past, I would have expected to see 2700 kwh in one monthly bill, for an *average* of 90 kwh/day. So far I have not seen such a month this year. Part of the credit must go to sealing a couple supply leaks, part to VS air handlers installed last Oct. Part to a radiant barrier installation which is maybe 70% done so far (the easy parts are done). It seems true that these improvements in the aggregate, have conserved energy. But I need to study weather data more thoroughly before I can estimate with confidence.

    That might be some good background, but the real question in your mind probably remains unanswered. Would you like to say what else I could tell you?

    Best wishes -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 08-16-2005 at 09:42 PM]

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,429

    Re: Could you rephrase...?

    Originally posted by perpetual_student

    There are two systems in my house and for either of them, could provide a data file of 8000+ temperature measurements, one per minute for 5-1/2 days. Surely you don't want that.
    I condense that dataset, looking to identify just what the percent on-time really is for that significant near-peak day of the year. For a typical hot summer day (most of which resemble one another near Houston)

    I am getting 77% duty cycle in the most extreme hour observed for one system.

    It occurs to me I don't need to look at duty cycle measured in any one hour (s/b 100% if properly sized), but maybe 4 hours. Anyone have opinions on that matter?

    That might be some good background, but the real question in your mind probably remains unanswered. Would you like to say what else I could tell you?

    Best wishes -- P.Student

    [Edited by perpetual_student on 08-16-2005 at 09:42 PM]
    'Shortening' the data sets into HOURLY average
    would be useful in determining Duty-Cycle
    daily/hourly fluctuations for 130 such HOURLY averages.

    A summary plot would make one+all aware of the Evening cooling requirements.

    Thanks.

    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

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