california economizers

[dfwdiesel]

Any tips on getting up the curve with zone systems such as California Economizers only at most a few men in the company I work get sent on these calls.
John Gregg

[jeffacr]

There web site has a lot of info on there website http://www.zonexsystems.com

However this is a cheap excuse for a zone system I have had alot of problems with this stuff and will not install it anymore.

Hope this helps

[dfwdiesel]

thanks Jeff,

I bookmarked it. I noticed there do seem to be time consuming service calls on those systems. I had to work on one on Sunday afternoon awhile back.
John

[jeeper35]

If you need assistance, there is factory technical support that can be found at 800 228 2966. Also based on where you are in the country there are Regional Sales Managers and a National Training manager to help in the process.

[BaldLoonie]

However this is a cheap excuse for a zone system I have had alot of problems with this stuff and will not install it anymore.

Care to elaborate? We've had good luck with them including the system in our office.

[jeffacr]

Stripped gears in damper motors had to replace about 10 on 1 site, We had to replace all the chips in T-stats and controller(something about an update), low torqe on motors would not drive the damper.

They may work for some people, I have just had my fill and will recommend something else to my customers. You pay for what you get and this is an inexpensive zone system.

Just my opinion.

[jeeper35]

Well everyone is entitled to their opinion, however the failure rate of the motor you are refering to is less than 1/4 of 1%. How do I know this, I keep track!

Premature motor gear failure is due to 1 thing, that is when a installer forces the damper open or closed at a rate faster than the motor is designed. If the damper takes 45 seconds to close, it should not be force to open faster then 45 seconds. Doing this causes undue stress to be put on motor gears resulting in premature failure. This is generally seen 4 to 6 months after job has been commisioned.

I would and do put Zonex low pressure dampers up against EWC, Honeywell, Carrier, Arzel or any of the others out there. As for Cheap, Zonex residential products are commodities, priced about the same as the other guys. Commercial controls and Dampers are much more competitively priced and when installed properly provide excellent control of HVAC and zoning systems.

[jeffacr]

My experience with this system was applied in a commercial application. Maybe it was misapplied? I don't believe that there was any undo stress applied to the dampers but could have been. They may work well for others. I will say that after the motors and the chips were replaced I don't remember having many, if any, call backs. But the problems that I did have led me to look elsewhere when using zoning as a solution.

[jeeper35]

Sounds as though you were using a older Select Temp with the Gold double stack motors. I will say that Syncron made a change in the motor gears on actuator replacing metal with plastic. This lead to issues with the motors. 4 years ago this motor was replaced with a ML6161 honeywell and no problem of this nature is now found. Last year 2 of these actuators were returned for warranty, but operated perfectly.

[BobbyBJr]

We have used this line of zoning for several years and have had a few problems, but not really anymore than we have with other brands. We do have one account that has a damper that strips the plastic gear every few months. I couldn't find a thing wrong with the damper and finally just ordered a bag of gears and have them there for when one fails. We did have one account on which we had to replace several of the boards on the dampers, but that account had 38 zones and has worked well for us since. We also use Carrier and Honeywell zoning products and all three have their place.

Bobby

[controldude]

Iv'e had problems with the stacked up motors too but my biggest problem was trying to recalibrate the DAT/Limit sensor

[gwgoins]

I HAVE BEEN IN CONTROLS FOR 18 YEARS, FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS I HAVE SOLD CALIFORNIA ECONOMIZER{ZONEX SYSTEMS}, ALLTHOUGH THIS IS A SIMPLE SYSTEM, EDUCATION IS A MUST IN THIS PRODUCT. THE WHOLESALER IS NEEDED ONLY AS A STOCKING ICON.THE REGIONAL SALES MGR IS A MUST. I PRIDE MYSELF IN TAKING CARE OF THE HVAC DEALER AND HIS SERVICE PEOPLE,IF THERE IS A PROBLEM THEY NEED NOT CALL THE WHOLESALER THEY NEED ONLY TO CALL ME OR THE FACTORY TO GET THE ANSWER THEY NEED AT THAT TIME, PERIOD. I KNOW OUR STRONG POINTS AND THE WEEKNESS OF OUR SYSTEMS. WE CONTINUE TO IMPROVE OUR PRODUCTS AND HAVE LEARNED ALOT FROM THE SERVICE PEOPLE THAT WORK ON OUR PRODUCTS. SINCE 1967 WE HAVE MANUFACTURED MANY ZONE SYSTEMS THAT DO NOT BEAR OUR NAME, BUT NOW WE USE OUR OWN NAME AND STAND BEHIND EACH PRODUCT. MY NAME IS GARY GOINS, I TAKE CARE OF NC,SC,VA. MY MOBLE NUMBER IS 336-210-9511, IF YOU CARE TO CALL I WILL GET YOU THE HELP YOU NEED.

[The Penguin]

caps off please your post is a beach to read and I wanted to read it

[gwgoins]

caps off, sorry, i do get excited about our products and I want each one to be a success.

[jeeper35]

Hey Gary great post.

Joe Siegmund

[jogas]

gwgoins,
What is the difference between a california economizer and the Carrier VVT system? I'm not asking for a hardware or firmware comparison, but a logic comparison.
Also, with the system in heating mode, how do the zones needing cooling get ventilation?
Jogas

[Lifer]

I live in wilmington NC and I have been using Cal. Econo. systems. I have used Mr. Goins in the early days of the system 1000 controllers and I have had nothing but good service from both systems and their willingness to solve any problems that I have had there on site and with little hold time. Now my distributer is so helpful that he too has gone with me to do startups and service calls at most anytime I have asked him to. Thanks to Comfort Solutions Inc. also.

[jeeper35]

Jogas,

Zonex Systems says that Zonex Commander is VVT at half the cost. The basic logic to operation is very similar between the two. When I read your question, I am not sure what you are asking. Hardware is defined, however the firmware would reflect logic. Can you narrow down your question? I would like to give you the information you are looking for.

Joe

[jogas]

Originally posted by jeeper35
Jogas,

Zonex Systems says that Zonex Commander is VVT at half the cost. The basic logic to operation is very similar between the two. When I read your question, I am not sure what you are asking. Hardware is defined, however the firmware would reflect logic. Can you narrow down your question? I would like to give you the information you are looking for.

Joe

I did think that they operated similiarly. I did not know the cost difference though. Thank you.
Questions:
1. How do you determine the number of calls for heating or cooling required to index the RTU or AHU to heat or cooling mode?
2. How do you determine the length of run in either heat or cooling mode?
3. How do you provide ventilation (required by ASHRAE) to zones not receiving any airflow because they request opposite of what mode the RTU or AHU is in?
Jogas

[jeeper35]

Jogas,

It is good to keep in mind we try to keep everything as simple as possible.

If this application was zoned, majority heat or cool would set mode of operation. If 3 calls for cool, 2 for heat and 9 no call, system would run in cool until majority changes by way of zones satifying or more zones calling for heat. If a tie for heat and cool is made, first call first served. The MODSTAT thermostat has the ability to control baseboard or reheat coils for applications needing or using this type of supplemental heat.

Minimum positions can be set in dampers for building air circulation requirements. Maximums can also be set.

Some other diferrences can be seen in the confirguration and start up of systems. To configure Zonex communicating thermostats, you simply address 1 through 20 and you are done as opposed to going through how many steps on the VVT platform? Software is included with command centers, it is not license or registered, if needed you could put it on 100 machines. Remote communications may be made from phone modem or internet using the Iserver.

I know I left out something from your question, I would be more than willing to provide any information to you or participate in a net meetings to show and explain any other features. This is quite an exciting product line, it works is simple and priced right.