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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    32
    turns out the damn condenser tripped my circuit breaker--and it isn't even a particularly hot day out (81 degrees). is this normal? we were running the dryer at the same time, but I have a big problem if I can't run a clothes dryer and the central A/C at the same time.

    LJM

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Originally posted by machese
    turns out the damn condenser tripped my circuit breaker--and it isn't even a particularly hot day out (81 degrees). is this normal? we were running the dryer at the same time, but I have a big problem if I can't run a clothes dryer and the central A/C at the same time.

    LJM
    That 5-ton condenser probably pulls a lot more juice on startup than your old unit. The HVAC and the dryer must be on separate circuits, each with their own circuit breaker. I assume you did not lose power to the whole house or other sections of the house. So perhaps the HVAC and the dryer do have separate circuits but they both come out of an accessory box downstream from your entrance panel. In that case, the main breaker in that smaller box should cover the power required by both branch circuits. If not, maybe the problem will resolve itself if you back down to a 4 ton unit which will draw less power.

    One other possibility, perhaps with all the shortcycling, the electronic controls got confused or broken. There is a time delay to prevent the condenser from coming on too soon after cycling off. This is to prevent damage inside the compressor. Have the contractor check the time delay.

    Al

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    66,753
    If he's lucky, his electrical service is alittle light, and the voltage lag caused the compressor to draw enough amps to trip the condenser breaker.
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  4. #17
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    5,987

    Duct and Damper Design Layout ?

    Originally posted by machese
    My only concern is that his guys put a Hole in ALL my supply ducts to slip the arzel dampers in, but i am sure that can be repaired.
    Only FOUR Actuating dampers are required
    for a Three-Zone system.
    One for each zone and one for the By-Pass.

    TRY operating with the By-Pass
    set to a MAXimum of 50% open
    for a few days.

    Manual J 8th edition typically may be 20% oversized.
    Always ROUND Down by ~1/2_Ton.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    North Richland Hills, Texas
    Posts
    14,914
    Originally posted by machese
    Thanks for the replies!

    The rest of the configuration is as follows:

    Three zones--

    Zone1: first floor (app 1500 sq ft)

    Zone2: second floor minus master bedroom (app 1100 sq ft)

    Zone3: second floor master bedroom (app 400 sq ft)

    equipment as follows:

    [snip](we have two in town that use Carrier & Trane equipment). It will be an interesting conversation tomorrow!!!

    Thanks to all for your insights on the matter!!!

    Especially with that level of zoning, bumping up to the 5 ton system was a mistake to say the least.

    Others may disagree with me, I really don't care if they do, but I would not even condidder that level of zoning with a single stage system or a 2 stage scroll system.

    Look into a Trane XL19i system with a Trane zoning system, or a Carrier Infinity system, if you want to do that level of zoning with one system.

    I like the Trane zoning system because it uses modulating dampers to control the airflow to the zones to try to get all the zones to setpoint at the same time and actually shut the equipment off. Beats the hell out of most systems that have the equipment cycling off and on continously as each zone calls.

    I don't know as much as I would like about exactly how the Carrier Infinity system works, but its got one heck of a slick control system.

    Both the Trane XL19i and Carrier Infinity have a MUCH more zoning friendly capacity and airflow split between 1st and 2nd stage, and better 1st stage latent capacity, than any of the 2 stage scroll systems that I have looked at.

    I normally would encorage you to work with your existing contractor to resolve all your issues, but I have a deep seeded personal distaste for the company that installed your system. Condiddering who owns them, I do find it highly amusing that they didn't want to use the Lennox zoning system.

    [Edited by mark beiser on 08-08-2005 at 12:20 AM]
    If more government is the answer, then it's a really stupid question.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Originally posted by mark beiser

    I normally would encorage you to work with your existing contractor to resolve all your issues, but I have a deep seeded personal distaste for the company that installed your system. Condiddering who owns them, I do find it highly amusing that they didn't want to use the Lennox zoning system.
    I just looked at the Service Experts, Inc. web site and their "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed." Also, noticed their parent being Lennox International Inc.

    You have to give your contractor time to make it right. Hopefully, the local guy should be able to get plenty of help from the Service Experts organization. Is the local guy wholly independent as a business? Maybe a franchise? Does Service Experts have any ownership interest in the local company?

    In the meantime, in view of the size of the contract, be careful with your legal standing. Check your local Better Business Bureau and your county or city Consumer Affairs office for any hint of customer complaints in recent years. Don't get caught with a mechanics lien on your house due to non-payment. If the personal relationship starts going badly, maybe consult a lawyer or someone why can advise what that satisfaction guarantee really means in New Jersey, and let the contractor know what you are doing.

    As a homeowner who has gone through two cycles of buying HVAC, I am leary of huge service companies, especially after one of them bought out the family owned outfit that sold me my Lennox system 13 years ago. Service sent downhill, and I replaced the system with a Trane HVAC three years ago from a small contractor who knows what all his people are doing.
    Al

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,061
    Thinking that reducing the system size (1 ton on high .5 ton on low) is going to greatly change humidity control is wishful thinking. More important is duct leakage and fan speed. You should be able achieve 50%RH with the 5 ton on low speed operating 10-15 hours per day. You will not be able to provide <50%RH with extreme low or no cooling load with a 5 or 4 ton unit. But a 135 pint whole house dehumidifier like Ultra-Aire will add the icing to the cake, making <50%RH reality with no cooling load. You may also turn off the a/c during unoccupied high temperature weather and expect <50%RH with the dehu. Get your a/c working correctly maintaining 50%RH during high heat loads and add the dehu for humidity control during the low/no cooling loads. Lennox sells the Ultra-Aire system for a good reason. TB

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    32
    can the ultraire unit be used if arzel zoning is installed? seems to me that it would have to control the dampers somehow so that dehumidified air can circulate even when there is no thermostat calling for cold...

    LJM

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Originally posted by machese
    can the ultraire unit be used if arzel zoning is installed? seems to me that it would have to control the dampers somehow so that dehumidified air can circulate even when there is no thermostat calling for cold...

    LJM
    If you are talking about running the blower continuously, many pros here say that brings more humidity into the house. One source is the evaporator coil itself and the pan beneath which usually remain wet after automatic blower shut off. The other source they mention is that the blower causes negative pressure in the house which promotes air infiltration from outside.

    In my home, I keep the blower on continuously because of allergies. But I'd like to see test data about the humidity angle. Any data handy out there?
    Thanks,
    Al

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
    Posts
    6,061
    Originally posted by machese
    can the ultraire unit be used if arzel zoning is installed? seems to me that it would have to control the dampers somehow so that dehumidified air can circulate even when there is no thermostat calling for cold...

    LJM
    The max duct pressure of the UA 135H-150H is .7" WG. If possible the dehu may be connected down stream of the zoning valves. This maintains dehumidifcation to an "off" zone. Also some stop the dehu when the a/c is zoning or operating. Typically dehumidification is only need when the a/c is not operating. Most zoning valves open when the a/c is not cooling.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Wadsworth, OH
    Posts
    316
    Originally posted by machese
    can the ultraire unit be used if arzel zoning is installed? seems to me that it would have to control the dampers somehow so that dehumidified air can circulate even when there is no thermostat calling for cold...

    LJM
    Absolutely....we could even add a small circuit board and a solenoid to allow control of where the dehumidified air is delivered (basemnt or main floors). If the homeowner wanted to open the windows durring mild weather they can switch to basemsnt dehumidification only.

    jr

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