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  1. #27
    Join Date
    May 2005
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    Lubbock Texas
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    773
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    what is title of article?
    link brings me to page that is having problems.
    if you'll post the title, I can do a site search for it.

    thanks in advance.
    Here is an updated link. I started this post a while back.
    https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article.../35_6_929/_pdf
    The premise of ventilation is that the OA is clean or of sufficient quality to be used for dilution. Traditional ventilation is somewhat being threatened by the fact that the EPA is changing the requirements for outdoor air quality which is creating non-attainment zones in what is now becoming a significant portion of the country. That means that buildings in those areas will need to clean up the OA before they bring it into the building.
    www.genesisair.com
    Genesis Air Inc.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,161
    thanks! I'll look it over this weekend.

    I have a friend who got really sick from mold in her workplace.
    it did a lot of damage to her resp system & immune system.
    she buys a couple of air cleaners every year, I'm not sure
    than any of them are helping her. most seem to do ...not much.

    thanks for the link.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  3. #29

    Japanese study

    Genesis
    Were the units tested revealed to open records? From what I gather the GPS system shows no negative effects from the study.

  4. #30
    Breathe easy
    So from what I see, these studies are condemning the RGF Guardian air and REME air purifiers. What about the GPS system?

  5. #31
    Genesis will you post all the case studies

  6. #32
    This article sums up my views on the GPS product.

    Alchemy, Indoor Air and the Black Box

    By Jim Rosenthal, 3/17/2006

    Be wary of excessive marketing claims for products to take care of indoor air.

    For hundreds of years wizards and alchemists sought a way to be able to create gold from lead and/or other metals. From time to time one or more of them claimed that they found the way. In many cases this involved a "black box" where the lead was introduced on one end and the gold came out the other. Each time this "discovery" was shrouded in secret science or magic that could not be revealed. When these discoveries were investigated, it was found that they really did not do the job for which they were intended. (Actually, they did do the job which was to separate the fool from his money. But they did not convert lead into gold.)

    Well, the modern day alchemists seem to be concentrating their efforts in the field of indoor air quality. Every day it seems like we hear about another black box that transforms bad air into good air through some magical chemical process. Unfortunately, the chances of pulling off this transformation are about the same as the lead to gold trick of the alchemists. But how does one determine this?

    First, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. This is time-tested advice and it always is a good idea to be skeptical. Claims about health benefits derived from the use of an indoor air product are a warning sign. There simply is no good evidence to support such statements.

    Secondly, if it involves chemical reactions to alter the indoor air, no one can provide any degree of assurance that the results will be beneficial. Indoor air is a complex mixture of gasses and particles. When you add things like ozone, hydroxyl radicals, hydro-peroxides and other chemicals, you really do not know what is going to happen. Some of the reactions will produce less toxic results. In other cases the reactions will produce MORE toxic results. A great example is the formation of formaldehyde in the presence of ozone. Researchers have found that reactions of ozone and a wide range of VOC's including everything from the scents (terpenes) in cleaners to environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) create significant levels of formaldehyde - a known carcinogen.

    The problem is these devices are often used for and by the very populations that are the least able to tolerate any airborne irritants. The desire to create "pure" air for those with asthma, COPD, emphysema and other respiratory problems is often the rationale for making the expenditure to purchase and install the device in the first place. Instead of helping people with respiratory illnesses, these devices could be making their conditions worse.

    Thirdly, watch out for the claims that the device is used in hospitals, laboratories or in some other area where clean air is necessary or that it has been approved by some governmental agency. When one examines these claims, they are found to be misleading and not altogether truthful. For example, we have found that some of the uses of the technology of the devices are for disinfecting instruments or purifying water. They have nothing to do with cleaning the air. A corollary to this rule is to watch out for claims that the product is "approved" or has been "tested" by some foreign country. This is usually a sign that someone is trying to make a claim that would be very hard for the consumer to substantiate. If the claim cannot be confirmed through third party information, don't believe it. There are plenty of legitimate and capable testing laboratories in the US and Europe that can test devices. There is usually a reason why the device has been "tested" in some far-off land. It is not because they are "smarter" or "better" than we are.

    The literature for many of these devices touts the fact that the device produces less than 50 parts per billion of ozone which they say is the voluntary limit of the FDA. In fact, the FDA only regulates medical devices and does not have a voluntary limit for air cleaners. In addition, there is no assurance that these levels are safe for those who have respiratory problems. In our studies we found that levels of ozone in the 20 to 30 parts per billion range still created substantial chemical reactions and the formation of millions of sub-micron sized particles.

    Also, be wary of any claims that a device will kill mold, viruses and bacteria inside a building. If the device produces enough ozone, hydroxyl radicals, hydrogen peroxide or whatever to kill mold in a building, it also has the potential to react with human tissue which could cause serious health problems. Chemicals do not differentiate good reactions for humans and bad reactions for humans. When someone claims there is "good ozone" or "good hydro-peroxides" or any other chemical, it is a cause for concern and a sure sign that your "radar" should go up.

    Fourth, if you read the marketing literature carefully and you still do not know how the device works, it probably doesn't. The use of big (and often made-up) words does not make the device more scientific or advanced. If it sounds good, but confusing, raise the "warning" flag. This is often part of the illusion created to sell units and not enlighten you with new scientific discoveries.

    In the final analysis, the world of indoor air is a buyer beware market. The best time to buy the miracle indoor air product is right after you purchase the black box for converting lead to gold.

    I don't see anything in their information that leads me to believe it is not "alchemy" and they indeed have the magic black box we have been looking for.

  7. #33
    Air purifier, also commonly referred to as air cleaner, are electronic devices. The goal of these electronic devices is to clean the air. This is done by eliminating harmful air contaminants. Air contaminant is another word used to describe air particles. No matter what they are called, they could be harmful to your health or to those who visit your home. That's why it's recommended for all homes to have an air purifier in them. In fact, in addition to be recommended, some homeowners are actually urged to have an air purifier for their home.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
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    6,336
    Quote Originally Posted by Air Purifiers View Post
    Air purifier, also commonly referred to as air cleaner, are electronic devices. The goal of these electronic devices is to clean the air. This is done by eliminating harmful air contaminants. Air contaminant is another word used to describe air particles. No matter what they are called, they could be harmful to your health or to those who visit your home. That's why it's recommended for all homes to have an air purifier in them. In fact, in addition to be recommended, some homeowners are actually urged to have an air purifier for their home.
    What is your opinion of filtered fresh air ventilation and maintaining <50%RH verses Merv?? air filters verses "Air Purifiers"? Do you have documentation and brand recommendations?
    I take it that are ok with potiential oxidation/mutation by O3?
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  9. #35
    I don't have any documentation. I think air purifiers is best rather than air filters.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Lubbock Texas
    Posts
    773
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    The premise of ventilation is that the OA is clean or of sufficient quality to be used for dilution. Traditional ventilation is somewhat being threatened by the fact that the EPA is changing the requirements for outdoor air quality which is creating non-attainment zones in what is now becoming a significant portion of the country. That means that buildings in those areas will need to clean up the OA before they bring it into the building.
    www.genesisair.com
    Genesis Air Inc.

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    In a boiler room
    Posts
    7,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Air Purifiers View Post
    I don't have any documentation. I think air purifiers is best rather than air filters.
    If you don't have documentation, what are your qualifications?

    Just from a service techs point of view, almost every piece of equipment that has an electronic air cleaner also has dirty coils, blower wheels etc. But the ones that have a media filter of merv 10+ stay clean.

    But if you're talking about room air purifiers that produce any ROS such as ozone, forget it, they are at best a hoax and at the worst a health hazard.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    126
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    If you don't have documentation, what are your qualifications?

    Just from a service techs point of view, almost every piece of equipment that has an electronic air cleaner also has dirty coils, blower wheels etc. But the ones that have a media filter of merv 10+ stay clean.

    But if you're talking about room air purifiers that produce any ROS such as ozone, forget it, they are at best a hoax and at the worst a health hazard.
    Electronic air cleaners capture microscopic airborne particulate down to .03 micron. Merv 13 filters are less than 75% effective at .3 micron. Herein lies the problem. Homeowners tend to ignore the maintenance required to keep electronic air cleaners working at .03 efficiency. Media filters actually increase in efficiency as they load.

    As far as your comment on ozone being a hoax, that is completely false. In controlled applications ozone has a significant effect on destroying odors, VOC's, bacteria, virus, mold, and mildew.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Westlake, Ohio
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    2,470
    http://www.gizmag.com/free-radical-c...eration/25820/

    I am not sure how many saw this article, and I am not sure how credible a Noble laureate might be, but this just might make some rethink there position on ROS. I am not afraid to admit, he is smarter than me. Appears to know just a little about DNA. I wonder if this has made it to Japan yet?
    captain CO

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