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Thread: Copper Coil rust leak?

  1. #1
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    Copper Coil rust leak?

    We live outside of Memphis TN and had a house built 2 years ago. We turned on our air last week and cold air wasnt blowing out and the tempt in the house was getting warmer. We had a tech come out and check and he said the one of the copper coil inside the evaporator rusted and freon has leaked out. He put 4LBS in. We paid $ for the visit and 4LBS of freon. He said it will be $ for labor to have the copper coils replaced with aluminum which is what they are using now. The coils itself are covered My question is I did not even think copper rusted, and if it does how would it rust within 2 years?
    Last edited by beenthere; 05-02-2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: Price

  2. #2
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    Your copper did what?

    Tasgmv,

    I would call whoever installed the unit and check if it is under warranty. If an extended warranty was purchased and you are the original home owner it may be covered. If it was a standard builders grade unit it may have only come with a 1 year warranty though, but it does not hurt to check.

    If you call a service guy to your house he does not have to honor the warranty though, so you have to make sure the company you call honors manufacturer warranties.

    If it is not under warranty I would find out what brand and model Condenser, Air handler, and Coil you have and check the website of the MFG for a dealer locator, or look in your phone book yellow pages if they list the HVAC contractors by the brand they sell (ex. Trane, York, Carrier, Bryant, Goodman, etc.), or check the Internet for local dealers.

    Call someone you trust who specializes in the brand you carry and even get a few estimates on repairing or replacing the coil.

    AC coils can leak because of a manufacturing defect, tubes rubbing together due to vibration, the installer did not properly solder the line set to the coil, dissimilar metals touching eating each other, or contaminants in the air that can eat the copper and cause a leak (ex. drywall dust, formaldehyde used to make new carpet, bleach or ammonia, etc.)

    Other than that the lines and coils are soldered together to make a sealed system and should never leak unless some outside factor causes the leak. You should never have to add freon to your system if it is properly installed and leak free. And if there is a leak it should be found and fixed before the charge is weighed back in to the unit according to factory specifications.

    The rust the service guy saw is probably due to condensation forming on the coil in the cooling mode and running along the copper tubes which usually have a piece of galvanized steel as end plates holding the coils in place to prevent them from spreading apart. Over time the galvanized will rust, but will not cause a leak in your coil. Most coils are copper with end plates of another metal, and some of the newer coils are all aluminum, but a good copper coil should still last as long as 20 or more years if in a conditioned space and no airborne contaminants are present to eat it away.

    I hope this information is helpful. Have a good day.

  3. #3
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    More than likely, you have a case of formicary corrosion
    otherwise known as Ants Nest Corrosion.


    I have seen a study by a major A/C Manufacturer
    that still hasn't come to a conclusion as to what may
    be the culprit.
    I didn't name the manufacturer, because its an issue with all the manufacturers. At least they did report what they were doing.

    My first suggestion is to evaluate the air entering the air cond system.
    Is the system drawing in chemicals... ie Laundry, cleaning supplies, etc

    There has been suggestions made that there could 'possibly' be a link between ants nest corrosion and newer building materials outgassing.
    Ever been to take a look at a new mobile home?

    As you can see by the link I sent...
    there's still not much known about it

    Do a search on this site or on Google if you'd like to learn more.


    Be safe with all the flooding
    I'm north of Memphis about 50 miles or so
    Extend to others the grace that God has given you.

  4. #4
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    Ski, the company I called out today to check it is the company that installed it for the builder. The coil part that they want to switch to alluminum is covered under the goodman warranty but I would have to pay for the labor. Do I have a legit reason to complain to this company for recharging it knowing there is a leak?

  5. #5
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    They can pump it down to save the refrigerant... if you don't wait too long.

  6. #6
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    Did he tell you before he charged it? If not then you didn't authorize him to just pump and go, but if you did then theirs nothing you can complain about. But if he just charged it and then gave you the bill then yes you have a reason to complain.

  7. #7
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    I still havn't seen anyone asking if he leak checked the evaporator. Is he assuming that the leak is at the "rust spots" without verifying? The system is only 2 years old, there may be a small leak at any one of the braze joints. He needs to confirm prior to changing the evaporator even if Goodman is giving it to you.

  8. #8
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    Thread Starter
    Quote Originally Posted by dewtech View Post
    I still havn't seen anyone asking if he leak checked the evaporator. Is he assuming that the leak is at the "rust spots" without verifying? The system is only 2 years old, there may be a small leak at any one of the braze joints. He needs to confirm prior to changing the evaporator even if Goodman is giving it to you.
    He had his tool that detects leaks and was pointing it near each coil and the machine started to go crazy when he pointed it at a certain coil. He didnt say anything about braze joints. When I asked him how the copper would rust and was leaking he said he "has no idea, its just one of those things". After talking to some people down here we found someone who works for Goodman and is going to come look at it tomorrow and get the replacement part and install it own his own time. But I would like to see what he says about it and then maybe complain to the builder and other company about trying to be ripped off.

  9. #9
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    Did the tech ask you before he filled it up? Did you want cooling? It would have damaged the compressor to try and run it 4 lbs low.
    I wish I had a $1.00 for every response I deleted.....

    "Decidedly Superior in a twisted pathetic way".....

  10. #10
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    You had someone come out and get you comfortable now you want to complain because you had to pay for it? I guess I don't understand what you have to complain about. Please elaborate.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsharp View Post
    You had someone come out and get you comfortable now you want to complain because you had to pay for it? I guess I don't understand what you have to complain about. Please elaborate.
    I want to complain because he told us we have a leak then went ahead and recharged it, knowing we have a leak and not explaining. 2 different HVAC specialist have since told us that he should not have filled it up knowing we have the leak.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tasgmv View Post
    I want to complain because he told us we have a leak then went ahead and recharged it, knowing we have a leak and not explaining. 2 different HVAC specialist have since told us that he should not have filled it up knowing we have the leak.
    Put yourself in the techs position. You find a system low on refrigerant, leak test & find a bad coil is the problem & a replacement may need to be ordered. You can fill the system up & get the customer comfortable & have the unit running O.K. until the final repair. You will probably not lose more than a pound of gas until the new coil replacement so where did you go wrong. Maybe the tech could have explained things better but it sounds like he took the proper steps.
    Gary
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    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    The best things in life are free but not everyone is willing to pay the price.
    When you appreciate what you have, you have a lot more.

  13. #13
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    Theirs no problem with him filling up with a leak, it only becomes a problem if he did it without authorization from you, but since you signed off on his work then it's not his problem any more, If you complained when he was their then you might have a case but you don't really.

  14. #14
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    That's a policy many companies use to force you to repair the system. It's the law in Canada, No fix, no gas. Laws vary according to the country you live.

    The logic of the situation is you have a leak, if it's not repaired, the refrigerant will leak out and there is no warranty for loss of refrigerant because nothing was repaired. It's like adding air to your car tire when there is a nail in it. It may last a while....... then again it may not.

    It would have shown good communications skills for the technician to explain this ahead of time.
    1) to avoid the friction of misunderstanding
    2) and have you sign a statement acknowledging that fact before adding refrigerant without a repair.

    We give refrigerant credit towards warranty coil replacement if the replacement was done within 2 weeks, our warranty coil replacement price includes everything except the coil.

    Any idea of a credit goes out the door when the home owner waits more than 2 weeks before making a decision and the refrigerant leaks out again with the resulting failure to cool. Some people will develop amnesia about the needed repair until the system fails to cool again.

    Most customers are unhappy if you collect money and leave and their family is still hot and sweaty. I seldom leave anyone without cooling.
    “I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”
    ― Benjamin Franklin

  15. #15
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    Don't be too hard on the tech's lack of a good response.
    There's a huge amount of knowledge that goes into this field.
    I've been doing it for twenty years and I'm still learning stuff
    that blows my mind. (here's a bit of stuff that usually throws people for loop.... Did you know that a byproduct of burning natural gas is Water?)

    This is the only industry I know of where a person has to learn
    so much from such a diverse amount of fields.
    Metallurgy (as you can see from the link I sent about ants next corrosion)
    Physics, thermodynamics, physical metabolisms, microbiology, pneumatics, chemistry, and the list goes on
    And those fields are all needed just to answer your one question about
    'why did the leak occur?'

    I honestly don't think I could give you a good answer even if it was staring me in the face.
    There is no test that I can run in the field to verify whether the leak is ants nest corrosion, a manufacturers defect, or anything else.
    I could look around and see if there is any obvious source of chemicals that could attack the coil.
    But other than that... what the tech said is about all you can do.
    You have a leak on a fairly new system, he recommends a better coil. It sucks that its so new, but at least you have a part warranty.

    I'd be very careful getting someone to do it 'on his own time'
    Extend to others the grace that God has given you.

  16. #16
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    No matter who you use, you're not out the refrigerant, they pump the unit down to save the refrigerant.

    What I want to know is, who is this Goodman guy, I have some warranty coils I would like him to change out.... on his own time.

  17. #17
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    Like was stated before the only issues I'd wonder is this did he ask before adding gas to the system? My rule of thumb is to ask the homeowner first about adding until we get the part, but I tell them up front that there's no guarantee on how long it will stay charged.

    As to the question about the leak I would say the rust might have allowed the copper to dance around very slightly where it goes through the galvanized plate and rubbed a hole into the tube.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickboggs View Post
    No matter who you use, you're not out the refrigerant, they pump the unit down to save the refrigerant.

    What I want to know is, who is this Goodman guy, I have some warranty coils I would like him to change out.... on his own time.
    If it's a 2 year old goodman condenser, the entire charge has to be pulled to take out the old filter drier and install a new filter drier......Unless the guy "doing it on his own time" isn't planning on spending that much time.....
    I wish I had a $1.00 for every response I deleted.....

    "Decidedly Superior in a twisted pathetic way".....

  19. #19
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    Seems to me, I could be wrong, in fact I'm usually wrong, but I remember being sent a dryer with each piece of equipment to install on the outside of the outdoor section. I am talking 410a though.... might be another brand. No, I'm sure it's Goodman.

  20. #20
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    Carrier, Bryant, Payne ship them seperate from the unit....

    Goodman Product Features

    R-410A chlorine-free refrigerant
    Energy-efficient compressor
    SmartShift™ technology to ensure quiet, reliable defrost
    Factory-installed liquid line filter dryer
    Factory-installed suction
    line accumulator
    Brass liquid and suction line
    service valves
    I wish I had a $1.00 for every response I deleted.....

    "Decidedly Superior in a twisted pathetic way".....

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