Leak caused by nail in the drywall?

[frances9162]

Hello,
We own a brand new house and our central air is covered by a two year warranty. It seems, however, that we have a refrigerant leak and we are being told by the HVAC contractor that we are responsible for paying to have it repaired ourseleves because the leak may have been caused by a drywall nail puncturing the line in our basement ceiling. (The drywall was not installed by the builder - we had our basement finished by another contractor.)

My first question is, how likely is it that a drywall nail is causing the leak? Has anyone heard of this before?

My second questioin is, how likely is it that the line was leaking on its own and it has nothing to do with a drywall nail?

My last question is, I have a picture of the ceiling from before the drywall was installed. What should I be looking for in terms of a "line". There is a silver hose that runs along the joist in one picture, but it looks as if it is placed to high for a drywall nail to be able to reach it. I am wondering if this is the line?

Thank you,

Frances

[Chill]

Line sets are copper with the large line insulated,usually black insulation. Copper lines will last for many many years if left undisturbed. Yes I have heard of drywall nails pucturing a line.

How did they find the leak in the wall? How did they come to that conclusion?

[frances9162]

Hello, Thanks for your response!

They have not come to that as a final conclusion yet - they have definitely determined there is a leak through pressure testing and they are now isolating the different areas that they can access and testing those with pressure.

Basically, they are telling us that if they do not find a leak in the isolated areas, we are responsible for paying to get the leak fixed AND we must pay for the testing they have done so far.

But they will be returning tomorrow with the final diagnosis and I am trying to educate myself as much as possible between now and then.

But what I don't understand is that if they do determine the leak exsists in the area behind our drywall, how do they know for sure that we caused it? I would think that there is still a possibility that it was faulty when they installed it, so I am expecting that to be a major argument I will have to defend if they do find the leak is behind drywall.

Frances

[git-r-dun]

If the line behind the drywall is punctured from a nail or screw then the company youused to finish the basement should pay, if the leak is at a fitting i.e elbow that they brazed then they should cover it. More than likely there will not be a fitting behind the drywalled ceiling but you never know. Good luck

[Chill]

copper tubing does not go bad all by itself. It should be obivous once the leak is found, what caused it. The contracter that put up the drywall should be liable, thats what they carry insurance for!

[Black Adder]

You are going to have to bite the bullet and open up the drywall in order to see where the leak is. If it is a nail, well so be it. If it is leaking at a joint it is their responsobility. Either way in order for the air to work you will need to fix the leak.

[frances9162]

Well, unfortunately, rumor has it that the drywall contractor is in jail. So I don't know that we will have much luck getting him to pay if it is indeed a nail that punctured the tubing. We will end up with the bill, I'm sure.

I am looking at my picture again, and it looks like there is a black line that runs up beside the steel i-beam, and if it is fastened to the inside of the i-beam, it would probably make it hard to puncture with a drywall nail.

I guess we will wait until tomorrow to see what the final conclusion is and go from there.

I do appreciate all the replies. I'll let you know what happens.

Frances

[ct2]

copper tubing that hasnt been damaged in some way will not leak. It will leak at a joint and it will leak if a nail has been driven into it. If it had no leaks before the drywall was put up and it leaks now , they punched a hole in it

rumor has it that the drywall contractor is in jail.
who referred him to do your work?

[swnoel]

If in fact the leak is behind the drywall, somewhere.

I'd suggest you have a new line set run, rather than opening up all the finished walls looking for the problem.

Sounds like your gonna pay anyways and it would be cheaper just replacing the line set.

[RoBoTeq]

If the leak is in a horizontal run of tubing over a ceiling there will eventually be an oil stain in that spot.

I have had drywallers miss the stud that the tubing is attached to and run a nail into the tubing. It is a pain to find if there is no evident oil stain.

Before tearing into your walls and ceiling have the HVAC contractor isolate the lines and indoor coil at the service valve, remove the indoor coil, seal off the tubing and evacuate each line from the service valves. If a line is leaking it will be evident with this testing.

[frances9162]

So, they arrived this morning and found that both the coil and the line behind the wall lost pressure last night. Looks like there are multiple leaks.

We actually don't know that the damage occured after the drywall went in... our basement was finished in November and we had not used the AC before that - the house was only finished a month prior.

So at this point there is no way we are allowing them to tell us that one default is on them and the other is on us. The builder is Lennar and the HVAC contractor will have to just pick up the whole bill at this point or settle it with Lennar somehow.

[frances9162]

Sorry - I meant, one "defect" not "default".

To answer the question about the contractor that did the drywall - he was the framing foreman for the framing company that was subcontracted by the builder. We had known him quite well through the building of our home and he had finished three other basements in our neighborhood before ours. His current situation has to do with personal issues. We always found that his work was always top notch as was his work ethic. But I think he's fallen on some rough times right now.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

The only way you're going to know what happened is to open up the walls.
No way around that! Sorry...

[frances9162]

And at this point, that's what we are going to do.

But with the issue now also being the coil, we aren't paying for the diagnostic visit, and the repair of the coil, of course.

They are running pressure through the line set behind the wall again and will be back to see what results.

Lennar said they will open the ceiling for free. If we find that there is a drywall nail in the line, we'll pay for that and we have to close the ceiling ourselves. If not, then they will. So that's fair.

There might not be an oil stain because of the blown insulation that's up there which could absorb the oil before it penetrated the drywall. The blown insulation is also the reason we can't just run a new line set.

[ct2]

I'm a little slow at times so if you would , please explane to me why the HVAC contractor will be the one to have to take the loss for a leaky line when he had finished his work and had leak free system when he was finished

Is it because you have a leake now and you arent about to accept the responsibility yourself. What are you going to do when they expose the line set and show you the nail hole that was put in there? and what are you going to do to prevent someone else from doing it again.

If it has been determined that the leak is somewhere after the condenser, it is not right that the HVAC contractor bear the cost but as long as it isnt you paying the bill , i guess you really dont care who has to pay for the mistake of your jailbird.

It is very easy to determine if the leak is in a joint and if it were, the leak check would have revealed it

[frances9162]

Well, we don't know that the line was leak free when he finished. We Won't know until we open the ceiling that it was definitely a drywall nail that is causing this.

The builder is opening up the ceiling and if there is a drywall nail that is stuck in the line, then we will pay for a new line and pay to have the drywall put back.

If it's a floor screw that is stuck in the line, then the builder will have to pay the HVAC contractor and pay to have the drywall put back. (The builder put additional floor screws in after the HVAC was installed because we had floor squeaks.)

If it is a defective line and there is no indication that the damage was from the builder or our drywall contractor, then I guess it will be on the HVAC contractor.

But we are going to open the ceiling and see what is there and then determine.

The reason I had cause for alarm, was that very very early on the HVAC contractor was saying this was probably a drywall nail causing the leak and we had to pay. He was saying this based on very little info - before he'd done the isolation pressure testing - and it felt like he was prematurely finger pointing. Now after the isolation, he has found that the coil was indeed leaking, so we've established that there was fault on their part.

They are running another test on the line behind the wall and we may find that it was just the coil. In which case, the problem is solved.

[dx]

ct2, the system was NOT leak-free. He just said they found a leaky coil. Clearly the HVAC contractor has at least partial responsibility.

This is a very simple matter. Just disconnect (at both ends) the line that runs through the wall. Pressure test it. If it leaks, open up the wall. You will either find a nail hole in the line or you won't. That finding will determine who is paying for it. End of story.

And next time you have drywall done, make sure all electrical, plumbing and other lines are protected with the 20 cent steel plates made for this purpose.

[frances9162]

Exactly Dave - you got it.

And thanks for the advice on the steel plates. I will pass it on to my other neighbors who will be finishing their basements eventually.

[frances9162]

Dave, You know - you'd think that the county would make those steel plates part of the code. Kind of surprised they don't. (I'm just assuming they don't, actually. Are there places where they are code?)

[Black Adder]

CT2

That's a pretty harsh reply mate. I am sure if I was a new home owner with a leaking hvac system I would be looking for reasons for the leak and responsabilty for it. If it is determined to not be the hvac contractors fault fine and dandy he gets paid for the repair. You know as well as I do that there are a lot of hacks in the industry who don't bother with leak testing or even evacuation on new installs. So this situation could have been going on from day 1 on the install. It is not until the system is tried out in the summer that any problem would be evident. I don't believe the HO is trying to push blame on the HVAC guy, I just think he wants the problem resolved. As far as the HVAC contractor he seems to be taking an awful lot of time to do a job that could be done in a short period of time. If he finds a nail in the line, so be it. If it is leaking at a joint then fix it and get on with life.