Why I have to support nuclear power - Page 3
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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    That was the very first thing they figured out. With all that was going on from nature, it wasn't quite as easy as you make it sound. The U.S. even had generators available and ready to use, but the Japanese government did not want outside intervention until they figured out exactly what was going on.
    Let’s see, use helicopters to drop water on reactors AFTER they explode or use helicopters to bring in power BEFORE they explode? Hmm. No. I don’t think that was the FIRST thing they figured out as you claimed, otherwise, power would have been restored sooner instead of laying 100’s of yards of cable over the ground (burning precious time), and still taking a risk of not re-establishing the power in time.

    Maybe you can send them your phone number so they have someone to call who can figure those difficult things out for them
    Wew! There for a minute, while reading your post, I thought you might be leading up to stating you were ready and waiting for Japan to call you on the red phone, because with being the Grand Wizard of the HVAC Forum Universe (59K posts), you know how to "think outside the box".

  2. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 star View Post
    Let’s see, use helicopters to drop water on reactors AFTER they explode or use helicopters to bring in power BEFORE they explode? Hmm. No. I don’t think that was the FIRST thing they figured out as you claimed, otherwise, power would have been restored sooner instead of laying 100’s of yards of cable over the ground (burning precious time), and still taking a risk of not re-establishing the power in time.

    Wew! There for a minute, while reading your post, I thought you might be leading up to stating you were ready and waiting for Japan to call you on the red phone, because with being the Grand Wizard of the HVAC Forum Universe (59K posts), you know how to "think outside the box".
    From what I recall they did not know the level of damage and the radiation levels. Only fools rush in ... ...how did that go again?

  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    From what I recall they did not know the level of damage and the radiation levels. Only fools rush in ... ...how did that go again?
    You are obviously talking about AFTER the explosions, being you are wanting to discuss radiation exposure.

    I thought "I" was talking about restoring power BEFORE the explosions were to happen. I guess I missed that "fools rushing in" part before an actual explosion were to occur.

  4. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 star View Post
    Let’s see, use helicopters to drop water on reactors AFTER they explode or use helicopters to bring in power BEFORE they explode? Hmm. No. I don’t think that was the FIRST thing they figured out as you claimed, otherwise, power would have been restored sooner instead of laying 100’s of yards of cable over the ground (burning precious time), and still taking a risk of not re-establishing the power in time.

    Wew! There for a minute, while reading your post, I thought you might be leading up to stating you were ready and waiting for Japan to call you on the red phone, because with being the Grand Wizard of the HVAC Forum Universe (59K posts), you know how to "think outside the box".
    LOL! I agree with you on what the Japanese "did", but they were completely aware of their options to bring in large generators to keep the plant operational before the explosions forced them to drown the thing. For what ever reasons, which will probably remain unknown to the world, Japan made the decision to use useless battery back up rather then use their own or U.S. provided generators.

    I am an outside of the box thinking person, but I don't know enough about nuclear power plants to judge anyone elses decisions.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    From what I recall they did not know the level of damage and the radiation levels. Only fools rush in ... ...how did that go again?
    Initial reports did make it seem that the Japanese felt strongly that they could prevent more damages by utilizing their battery supplies to provide energy to keep the cooling systems operational. It turned out to be a very bad move, but not being there, who are we to condemn the decisions that were made?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Initial reports did make it seem that the Japanese felt strongly that they could prevent more damages by utilizing their battery supplies to provide energy to keep the cooling systems operational. It turned out to be a very bad move, but not being there, who are we to condemn the decisions that were made?
    The battery backup did its job, the problem was that the batteries ran out of juice. With no cooling hydrogen was formed which then blew the place up real good. A lot of lessons learned from this catastrophe. The best engineering comes about when things fail. Up until that point you are just guessing.

  7. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5 star View Post
    You are obviously talking about AFTER the explosions, being you are wanting to discuss radiation exposure.

    I thought "I" was talking about restoring power BEFORE the explosions were to happen. I guess I missed that "fools rushing in" part before an actual explosion were to occur.
    How would they know the levels of radiation if they can not get into the place because of all the damage? Do you think they just drove up, looked around, and then went back home? If it was easy they would have done it.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    The battery backup did its job, the problem was that the batteries ran out of juice. With no cooling hydrogen was formed which then blew the place up real good. A lot of lessons learned from this catastrophe. The best engineering comes about when things fail. Up until that point you are just guessing.
    I believe that is what 5 star is referring to, the batteries failing. The Japanese were aware that the batteries were not going to do the job while they were refusing to let the U.S. bring in generators. Why the Japanese made that decision is a mystery. Since it may be a concern from Japan over national security, it will most likely remain a mystery to us.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    How would they know the levels of radiation if they can not get into the place because of all the damage? Do you think they just drove up, looked around, and then went back home? If it was easy they would have done it.
    This is the crux of the matter. The Japanese had their experts on the scene, doing what they felt was the best thing to do under circumstances that could never have been completely anticipated.

    For us to criticize the Japanese for making a bad decision, after the incident occured is just rude. Those people working to stop more destruction from that nuclear plant were all on the front lines of a very likely deadly situation. I commend every one of those people who tried to contain the situation, even though their decisions turned out to be bad ones.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #36
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    Given the fact that the Japanese coastline is prone to earthquakes and tsunamis,
    I kinda think the engineering in the case of the japanese plant..well...sucked. They should have had 15 ways to provide cooling to the reactors. There should be at least 3 seperate systems with non-ridgid supply water piping and the same number of non-ridgid power cables. They should have several redundant generator stations all positioned above catostophic flood levels and built water tight.
    The back-up cooling system(s) should be able to with stand equal or greater forces, events, calamities as the core itself.
    KCA, feel free to pass my handle around to your nuke pals should they need any consulting in the future. :-)

  11. #37
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    The explosions were due to hydrogen building up in the outer building. This building is basically just a roof/enclosure for the plant and is not meant to contain releases. The fact that it blew up wasn't a big deal except for the debris making it harder to get around. In the US plants, they added a vent to vent to the outside because they were worried about a potential hydrogen explosion. If you watched the building blow, you will notice that the base structure remains. See, the building is made up of panels that are made to blow off. These are there for tornados.

    They had designed for a tsunami, but this one was just bigger than what is was designed for.

    The operators followed emergency operating procedures as far as I can tell (including injecting seawater).

    The problem was there was only limited time on batteries and they first had to figure out what all was going on, what systems were available, radiation levels (if any), etc. The area was destroyed and you can't exactly run down to home depot and pick up a generator and plug it in. You also had this going on at 3 reactors at the same time, making it difficult to focus on 1. It is easy to look back and say what they should have done. It is hard to imagine the chaos during an event like this. I mean a quake that size is HUGE to begin with and the tsunami was gigantic. The operators did everything they were supposed to do. The problem was that these plants didn't get the modifications made to similar US plants over the years.

  12. #38
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    Friday, 11 March: 1446 local time (0546 GMT)

    The 8.9-magnitude earthquake strikes off the coast of Honshu island at a depth of about 24km. The tremor triggers the automatic shutdown of 11 of the nation's nuclear power reactors, including reactor units 1,2 and 3 at the Fukushima Daiichi power plant. Reactor units 4, 5 and 6 were undergoing routine inspections, so were not operating.

    The quake causes the power station to be cut off from the national electricity grid. The plant's operators, Tokyo Electric Power Co (Tepco), find that the diesel-powered emergency generators for units 1 and 2 are not working and notify government officials.

    1541: Tepco reports that the emergency generators for reactor units 1, 2 and 3 have failed - some reports suggest that the diesel-powered back-up systems are affected by the tsunami.

    In the following hours, engineers attempt to install mobile power units to replace the diesel systems and manage to stabilise conditions at units 2 and 3, but not at unit 1.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12722719

    Seems that the first thing they did was try to get the mobile generators hooked up.

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12722719

    Seems that the first thing they did was try to get the mobile generators hooked up.
    That's the way I understood it from the very first reports.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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