Do I have any rights?

[kirby2000]

My home is ten years old and I have two heat pumps- one for upstairs and one for downstairs. I have a 10-year extended parts & labor warranty on all the equipment. Both indoor units needed a "charge" three years ago and I was billed for two pounds of freon. A couple months later the units again needed a pound each, a couple moths after that the same thing again. After the fourth time I sent a letter to the installing / servicing contractor asking him to a do a leak search, which he never did. I ended up sending about six letters before I finally got frustrated and called the manufaturer and was given the name and number of another contractor in my area. The replacement contractor came on board and added freon twice before I finally asked them in writing to perform a leak search. It seems verbal requests get no attention. I called the manufacturer rep for the state of Virginia and explained my situation- I had concerns the warranty would expire before my problems resolved- I was told it would be taken care of regardless. Finally, the replacement contractor performed a leak search three days after my ten-year warranty expired and found three leaks in each indoor unit and they can not be repaired. After waiting two months and adding freon three times I called and asked the contractor what is going on! I have been told the manufacturer is deciding whther to warrant the coils or not, and if they do replace the materials they will not pay the labor. I would be expected to pay this!
The end of the story: Freon has been added eight times for a total of 12 pounds over three years; I sent seven written requests combined to two different contractors and even talked to the state distributor rep twice and the the manufacturer twice for a leak serch prior to my warranty expiring.
Now what should I do? Do I have any rights? Thank you in advance for any information you may be able to provide.

[t527ed]

i don't know if you have them in your state but you might want to get state or county consumer affairs involved. they are very persuasive around here.

[miami mike]

Originally posted by kirby2000
My home is ten years old and I have two heat pumps- one for upstairs and one for downstairs. I have a 10-year extended parts & labor warranty on all the equipment. Both indoor units needed a "charge" three years ago and I was billed for two pounds of freon. A couple months later the units again needed a pound each, a couple moths after that the same thing again. After the fourth time I sent a letter to the installing / servicing contractor asking him to a do a leak search, which he never did. I ended up sending about six letters before I finally got frustrated and called the manufaturer and was given the name and number of another contractor in my area. The replacement contractor came on board and added freon twice before I finally asked them in writing to perform a leak search. It seems verbal requests get no attention. I called the manufacturer rep for the state of Virginia and explained my situation- I had concerns the warranty would expire before my problems resolved- I was told it would be taken care of regardless. Finally, the replacement contractor performed a leak search three days after my ten-year warranty expired and found three leaks in each indoor unit and they can not be repaired. After waiting two months and adding freon three times I called and asked the contractor what is going on! I have been told the manufacturer is deciding whther to warrant the coils or not, and if they do replace the materials they will not pay the labor. I would be expected to pay this!
The end of the story: Freon has been added eight times for a total of 12 pounds over three years; I sent seven written requests combined to two different contractors and even talked to the state distributor rep twice and the the manufacturer twice for a leak serch prior to my warranty expiring.
Now what should I do? Do I have any rights? Thank you in advance for any information you may be able to provide.

What you have experienced is not (I hope) the industry norm.

At the company I work for everyone is equipped with an electronic leak detector.

Doing a "gas and go" is certainly frowned upon. After all, if Im "on call" and get sent to a "call back" at 10:30 pm for an undercharged system that was recently "gassed" Im gonna be pissed and let my coworker know about it.

Call another contractor and tell them know you need a tech to show up with an electronic leak detector on his truck and "perform a leak search".

Keep calling until you find someone that will assure you that is what will happen.

Good luck.

[Edited by miami mike on 07-15-2005 at 12:12 AM]

[smokin68]

It sounds to me like you covered all your bases by the requests in writing.Write one more letter and directly call the manufacturer of your unit. Per EPA standards,they don't have to fix your leak but they SHOULD. Passing off a defective coil shows me incompetance and laziness, especially if the parts warrantied. You will probably have to cover the labor,as your warranty most likely states this. Read it carefully.

[controldude]

If you have the original service reports I would take them to the EPA with your story they have enough evidence to determine whether your system was exceeding the 10 percent
per year leak rate. This may not fix your problem but it might get rid of the hacks that have been working on your systems. Hope this helps.

[miami mike]

Originally posted by smokin68
It sounds to me like you covered all your bases by the requests in writing.Write one more letter and directly call the manufacturer of your unit. Per EPA standards,they don't have to fix your leak but they SHOULD. Passing off a defective coil shows me incompetance and laziness, especially if the parts warrantied. You will probably have to cover the labor,as your warranty most likely states this. Read it carefully.

Hes got a 10 year "Parts and Labor".

The "defective coil" should have been changed from day one.

[classical]

I sincerely doubt that residential units hold more than 50 lbs. of refrigerant so the 10% law will not apply.

MM is right 10-year P&L should not cost you anything and should have been done.

What state are you in and what brand equipment? Carrier I bet!

Regardless you are in the right and have legal avenues in Texas you could sue in small claims court and collect triple damages up to $15,000. What you have encountered is called deceptive trade practice. Paper trails always pay off in the end. Send copies of all letters to the offending companies along with an intent to sue in small claims court. Send certified mail and send to owner and or president of companies.

[madjack]

Did the warrenty pay for the gas and goes? I hope you kept all doucuments and copies of the letters.The fact that you registerd a complaint before the experation date should help.Also, who was the warrenty company? I know when we sold em it wasn't from the manufacturer per se.

[Edited by madjack on 07-14-2005 at 11:05 PM]

[miami mike]

Originally posted by madjack
Did the warrenty pay for the gas and goes? I hope you kept all doucuments and copies of the letters.The fact that you registerd a complaint before the experation date should help.Also, who was the warrenty company? I know when we sold em it wasn't from the manufacturer per se.

[Edited by madjack on 07-14-2005 at 11:05 PM]

We sell extended warranties that are backed by the manufactures themselves.(AMSTD/Trane)

A 10/10 costs less then two months of electric.

[Jultzya]

You might check with this guy.

[dexman]

Yea but who wants "sloppy seconds"

[miami mike]

Originally posted by dexman
Yea but who wants "sloppy seconds"

Give me the coil and the labor allowance.

Consider it done.

[MikeJ]

Give a lawyer all of your paperwork and notes. He will invite the manufacturer and the contractor in for a visit.

[kirby2000]

Thanks for the feedback so far- here are a couple responses:

t527ed: Thanks, I am going to look them up and call today.

miami mike: The tech that came for the leak search had a yellow box with a metal wand of sorts attached to it and he waved it all over the outdoor units and exposed lines and nothing happened, then he went to the crawl space and the attic (by himself) and I could hear some high-pitch beeping tones and he came out and reported the three leaks in each unit.

smokin68: I will definately be reading my warranty literature very thoroughly today- but I am pretty sure it is 10 year Parts & Labor. Thanks.

controldude: Maybe a visit to the local EPA will be an eye-opener to these two contractors...thanks for the suggestion.

miami mike: I too think the coil should have been replaced since day one- which was three years ago.

classical: I am in Virginia- the equipment is not Carrier (and it is not Trane). I am going to spend the weekend putting together a binder with copies of all invoices, service reports, letters, and notes from the past three years, and even some pictures- I am going to send to both contractors, the state disributor, and the manufacturer...maybe a hint about possible further action. About now the triple damages for the deceptive trade practice sounds interesting.

madjack: The warranty did not pay for the gas and go's- I have spent about $750 on Freon and service visits in three years. I had already purchased the 10-year warranty when the equipment was new, I had a Energy Savings Agreement in place with the original contrator, and ultimately purchased a Maintenance Contract from the second contractor. I have had Freon added twice in the past month and have been invoiced for both visits, I got a bill yesterday from contractor 2 for the leak search! For warranty service I call the service contractors and I think they invoice back to the Virginia state distributor. It is ALMOST getting humorous...

jultzya: Thanks for the link-- that is too funny! Being an electrician I found it interesting but not as amusing as some of the reponses.

mikej: Unfortunately I think this is what will probably end up happening- me getting a lawyer involved. I really think things should be resolved prior to that but I am getting nowhere on my own and it appears I have been taken advantage of for the last three years.

Thank you all!

[travisfl]

Originally posted by kirby2000
The warranty did not pay for the gas and go's- I have spent about $750 on Freon and service visits in three years. I had already purchased the 10-year warranty when the equipment was new

Does your 10-year warranty have an exclusion for refrigerant? FWIW I'd consider that a 'part'.

[dash]

Who's the manufacturer?Have You called their 800 number yet,if not that's the place to start.

[sean88]

Did you contact the BBB? I don't know where you are in VA but I just installed a system for the president of the local chapter of the BBB here in Richmond. He's a great guy and can help you out if you need to take it to arbitration.

[engineerguy]

Another possibility: http://www.ripoffreport.com

[docholiday]

I guess I'm wondering why you all are blaming the mfg for the contractors not doing thier jobs. The claim for the new coil was not placed until after the warranty expired. Seems to me, I would have the beef with the contractor. Mfg's dont hire contractors, The distributor in this case should offer some support to the homeowner for a new coil once he sees enough documented evidence that there was poor service.

A leak gone unrepaired for 8 years boarders abuse or lack of service. This poor homeowner should be taking the contractors to small claims court for the reimbursement.

[kirby2000]

A quick thanks and reply to the latest posts:

travisfl: No, freon is not listed as an exclusion and yes it should have been recognized as a part and provided at no cost. The state distributor acted strange when I mentioned that I was invoiced for freon, and this afternoon as I talked to the manufacturer they too were curious about it.

dash: I called the manufacturer twice in the past as I went through this- once last September and this past April...on the day my ten-year warranty expired! I called the distributor for the state this afternoon and was told the manufacturer would be willing to provide the two coils but no labor- I told him this was unacceptable. I then called the manufacturer and went through my whole story again- including my two reference numbers from my previous calls to them and an update as to the position of the state rep. The manufacturer asked that I fax them copies of invoices for adding freon and the correspondence- while at the same time they would call the state rep. We will talk more next week.

sean88: I have not called BBB, yet; however, I am keeping that option available if I do not get an adeqaute resolution working with the manufacturer, state rep, and the local contractor.

engineerguy: thanks for the link, I will add it to my favorites and have it as an avenue if things do not work out.

docholiday: I agree, my beef is with the first contractor- I aggesively tried to get them to own up to their responsibilities but they would not; I called the distributor about the problem and was directed to another contractor; I called the manufacturer and was directed to the state distributor- I was being jerked around and led in circles as three years ticked by and my warranty expired. The distibutor at this point, this afternoon, is being very uncooperative and claiming he will furnish two coils- period.
If I do not get an acceptable resolution pretty dern quick (before I need freon again!) I will retain a lawyer and start at the bottom and work my way up the ladder of responsibility...contractor(s), state distributor, and the manufacturer-- all were aware of what was going on and did nothing to assist.


Thanks to all for your time and responses!