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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Office and warehouse in both Crystal River & New Port Richey ,FL
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    Originally posted by Irascible
    I'm not sure who you're referrig to Dash. But if ever there were a water carrier it has to be you. You're technical qualifications are not in doubt. But reading your posts one would think that you must always pick Carrier, always choose 410-A and always put in high end filtration. I'm sure you'd disagree with that assessment and that's OK.

    My personal philosophy on all of those topics is summed up with the word "whatever". Whatever the customer wants I'll give them so long as it isn't a scam. Brand and refrigerant types have little meaning to me because you simply can't prove one is better than the other. The day that you can will be the day I change my mind. Perhaps this study is a step in that direction. But in the mean time I remain open minded about any brand and any refrigerant. That doesn't seem to be the case with you, which is the very thing you seem to be criticizing of others.
    Guity as charged,up to a point.

    Yes, I think Carrier's Infinity or Thermidistat,is the best choice for residential homes.

    Yes,I think people should buy the top of the line for comfort first,and efficency second.

    Yes, I think puron/R410a is the better chice in refrigerant.

    Yes , I have an opinion.

    You state you are open minded,on refrigerants,that's not the way I read your posts(I bet baldie included you on the R22 side,LOL),including this one,and there's nothing wrong with that.Same goes for brand,what you say here,versus you website,which if I choose to sell Trane,I'd do the same.


    As for criticizing,that's not my intent(at least not the majority of times),but it is my intent to disagree.I'll try to be more careful in how I phrase things.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    If I were in Dash's shoes in his market place with his business I would probably do almost exactly what he does and make his same ddecisions cause I already do that in my own way.

    He's a Carrier dealer and is true to his beliefs and loyalty. I respect that. I also respect that he does "carry that water" to an enthausitic degree, which is what we all should do in our lives in something we believe in, sell and support as long as it is healthy and good for all.

    Since Dash has drawn his line in the sand about this R410a subject, addressing this issue with him is easier than with most and through that I think I will learn, he will learn, and most of those who read and get involved with this new subject will learn. And from that the best refrigerant and its application will surface even though Dashs loyalty to R410a is irritating to me sometimes in, probably, just the same way I am irritating to him in introducing my point of views about the possibilities of a cost effective, drop in replacement now or in the future.

    Let the discussions continue.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
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    2,633
    Delta,

    God bless the raving fanatic. We all need to believe in something. But when that fanatic says that others are unreasoned in their belief then I get annoyed. There are indeed plenty of unreasonable 410-A detractors. But his sarcastic comment about people seeing what they want came in a thread that included none of those types in my opinion.

    Dash,

    Pfft. Talk about seeing what we want to see.

    You can't find the thread where I criticize 410-A as a bad choice. It does not exist, ANYWHERE. You must be confusing me for someone else.

    As far as the site goes, take a look here. Point five use to mention that I prefer Trane. It was NEVER the rabid enthusiasm that you have for Carrier. It was a statement of preference. One or two months ago I pulled that comment out of the summary because I felt it wasn't in keeping with my philosophy.

    Now go down to the detailed explanation of point four here and you will indeed see that statement of preference. NO WHERE on my site, my van or my paperwork will you find a Trane logo. The only place that I state a preference for Trane is buried on a rather long page part way down. And even then it's a paragraph that comes second to a paragraph in which I explain the unimportance of brand. My statement of preference includes things that I believe to be facts. If you see any error there or any place else then point it out and it WILL be changed. I'm all about facts and not hype.

    Now call me crazy if you like. But a buried statement of preference does not make me a Trane fan boy by any stretch. My site is entirely in keeping with precisely what I've said here. If you can't see that then you are truly seeing what you want to see, kind of like those 410-A haters I'd say.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    7,680
    Ok lets not get into personal attacks.

    Heres my take for the refrigerant industry.

    In 2010 R-22 will no longer be used in new equipment. That is the law for those who do not know. This isnt Carrier or any other mfg's legislation. That is a mere 4 years away which means 3 to the mfg's. Current product lines already use 410A. In a realistic apporoach, it is unlikley that between now and then a new miriacle refrigerant will be invented, and tested to the point that the mfg's all drop everything they have done and jump on the wagon to redevelop equipment with this new snake oil. Trane also feels R410A is the refrigerant of choice, as does Lennox, Rheem, and most of the others.

    Who then wants to spend the money to overcome the simple economics to develop a refrigerant, that until it is invented has not been tested? Why would Honeywell or Dupont look to shoot themselves in the foot? Iras, we agree whole heartedly that the installation is 90% of the battle. There are however certain features from the different mfg's that give many contractors the egde in their buisness. I'm sure Dash and many others participate in assistnace with advertising and uniforms etc. and do have confidence in their suppliers. There is nothing wrong with that. The guys who are Trane or Rheem or Lennox dealers get the same. But regarding 410A I dont think there are the same level of people who push it with the same enthusiasm as those who are against it.

    I certainly dont discount the legitimacy of the report, I simply suggest the results dont get twisted to suggest that the difference is great enough to argue with. Yep a roof may get 130 but the hours that system is subject to those temps pales in comparison to the hours that system runs. I also went back and looked, the difference in capacity changes was 9% at 130 degree not 15% I originally quoted. That was the efficiency loss but ultimately irrelevent. It should be noted, R22 also loses efficiency and capacity at that temperature which means R-22 is not perfect.

    I just dont think holding out for a new breed of refrigerant will pay off for any contractor. He should at least learn to deal with 410A or he may find his market diminishing. I'm with Iras. Lay it out and give the customer what they want.

    [Edited by docholiday on 07-07-2005 at 04:08 PM]

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Concord, CA
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    Thanks for the information doc. But personal attack? HA! Telling Dash that he's as stubborn as a Kentucky mule and twice as ugly, now that would be personal.

    There's nothing wrong with belief in your product. There is something wrong when the fanatic tells you (as in literally you Doc) to not waste your time with explanations because people will see what they want. I happened to of been a part of the thread in which the comment was made and I didn't see any unreasonable comments from others in this thread. So I responded in a way that's befitting my ornery personality.

    And I most certainly did NOT put a whole lot of faith in that report. I simply stated that this is the first thing of its kind that I've seen and that I'd like to see any prior discussions on it. Your need to rebut the report in a reply that seems somewhat aimed at me implies that you may think that Ive used the report to detract from 410-A. Ive done nothing of the sort.

  6. #19
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    Apr 2004
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    It was a pre-emtive attempt at stopping the attacks before we got there. I agree he is ugly. Then again so are you and I.

    No, my posts werent aimed at you, hell I would have looked you up and called you on the phone and gave you the rasberries in person if I was aiming them at you.

    Listen, the OP says they want a 4 ton, 13 SEER system. Regardless of the refrigerant that is likely what they will get (unless J says otherwise). Both will preform to their specified capacities and SEER at those conditions. Personally I would suggest the OP look at EER rather than SEER in his climate and still ultimately choose the installer first. His choice of rerigrant ,expecially for a package unit needs to be based on how he feels the market will be and associated costs of service during the life of his unit.

    My point is that this test does not suggest R-410A will cost more to operate or carry any less capacity throughout the cooling season. In fact its data, along with the past 30 years weather data suggests otherwise. It simply addresses the highest of high temperatures which according to Manual J is 1% at 107 or 108 in Phoenix. (I gave it 3-5% to cover any doubt). It has been my experience that the extremests or uninformed (not derogitory) take this kind of information and make the case that its simply not a good choice.

    My experience with heat pumps receives several similar arguments by uninformed people as well. Be it techs or consumers. Straight Electric heat costs more to operate than gas or oil. Yet the application of the system throughtout the season makes that a moot argument. This is a parallel position. Anyone with an understanding of balance point, heat loss, and weather data (along with the fact HPS are sized for cooling load, not heat) sees the same argument only its a heating argument. I merely suggest that the dynamics need to be considered.

  7. #20
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    Mar 2002
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    Concord, CA
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    I've got three things to say.

    1) No argument from me on the technical points. Hell... I'm not informed enough to argue!

    2) My phone number is just one click away.

    3) I'm distinguished. You're just ugly.


  8. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    And I am the only beautiful person here...but we all have known that for quite a while. And if Dash thought like me he would be perfect..and that might be too big a responsibility to carry.

    OK, enough of this yuck!!! Anyway, back to the technicalities of that report.

    The report increases my curosity of technical merits of any and all the new refrigerants, especially R410a.

    For one, I wonder what the long term effects will be, if any, on that many running hours of high temps regarding POE oil. We all know that higher pressures mean higher temperatures. And we all know that mineral oil doesn't much like over 275 degrees coming out of the compressor or it tends to burn.

    I wonder if POE oil has any type of boundries that should be considered by us in the field? And will, in the long term, systems that are being built today primarily using R22 engineering but using R410a do as well as systems specifically built for the temps/pressures of R410a of tomorrow? I believe in the future the entire refrigeration circuit will have specifically built components for the pressures and charateristics of R410a.

    Pressure issues to me is not an arguement. Something that can be built to handle those pressures mean it will work just fine under those engineered conditions. After all, airplanes have used pressures in the thousands of pounds per square inch for years to control the plane. And we, as passangers, sit within inches of those very high pressure lines.

    But with this new generation of higher pressure, what will the learning curve be on failures of components and lines, joints, etc.? And how will a simple thing like a condensor fan, as they are built now, accept the temps of the higher pressures when they have been in service for a while, not maintained or maintained, partial to fully plugged, etc.?

    I can relate this to the change over of R12 to the newer refrigerants over the past few years as I have actually seen and worked on these systems. My experience with the small refrigeration systems have been more negative than positive both with conversions AND the factory made and produced R134a systems.

    I have found more compressor failures in conversions, higher head pressures in the running ones and gunk in the lines. On some of the R134a systems used in restaurants that, mainly, don't consider keeping their systems clean, I have also found a more frequent major failure of the compressors, plugged cap tubes and gunk in the refrigerant lines, which, I believe to be decomposed POE oil.

    So, what I have learned from these field experiences is that the newer refrigerants have less tolerance to extreems, simple put -- no maintenance. They work fine if maintained and not exposed to extreems.

    These are some of the things I ponder and have noticed over the past few years as we go through this changeover. I believe more will come including discovered shortfalls of any of the newer refrigerants including R410a.

    Sooner or later our field experience will point out to us the benefits and limitations of the newer refrigerants just as the old refrigerants did.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  9. #22
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    Apr 2004
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    7,680
    Originally posted by Irascible


    3) I'm distinguished. You're just ugly.


    Doh!

  10. #23
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    Apr 2004
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    Delta T,

    I was following along just fine and you may have some valid points, until I read the condesner fan thing (the beautiful person thing threw me off too). If the saturation temperatures are the same from a operational standpoint of R-22 versus R-410A (which they are, you still run a rougly 40 degree indoor coil and a 115 degree outdoor coil (normal and yes that does change but not related to refrigerant). How does this affect the condenser fan? Isnt 115 the same from one unit to another?

    A head pressure switch is basicly the same, a 400 cut out on a r-22 system is a saturated temperature similar to that of a 410A system pressure of 620 psig. (Im guessing since I dont have a chart handy).

    What am I missing here?

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    Figured someone would pick up on that particular point. Clearification is that after a normal period of time running and with the typical customer non-maintenance to the condenser and the entire system, the condensor fan could get drawn into the overworking scheme of things (that's why I used the old R22 system design using R410a example)and, even though the temps would still be the temps, wouldn't the overall effect of working harder of the entire system show up in things such as a simple thing as the condensor fan?

    According to the report the tonage rating of the system would suffer at higher ambient temperatures plus the additional consideration of the "normal" lack of customer maintenance would cause the system to run longer to compensate.

    So abstrack items, such as the condensor fan motor, the pulleys on the belt driven blower motor, the belts, contactors, etc all would tend to work longer and harder so an item such as a simple condenser fan motor would be subject to longer periods of running which could result in hotter windings and considering the lower air flow over the condensor due to dirt, etc. thereby failing more quickly.

    I know this may seem abstract but think it all the way through. I am basing this on a unit exposed to higher temperatures as shown in the report and as compared to our field experience history with R22 as an example. And that pressures in an R410a system run higher than an R22 system including the safety shut off head pressure control.

    R22 systems have the same problem but we are use to that. So would the newer refrigerant, which could cause the unit to run longer according to this report, result in more or quicker failures of parts? Then the manufacturers would have to develop, say, a newer condensor fan motor which would be rated at a higher temperature rating?

    Or even more abstrack, our refrigerant gauge hose have always been pretty much rated for 800 pounds of pressure but we have been using them on the "average" system, which runs - even out of whack, at usually no more than 400 to 425 pounds until the HP safety is hit. Now consider using those same hoses on an R410a system from some point on. Wouldn't those hoses, now exposed to more pressure, fail sooner?

    If one set of R410a/R22 gauges and hoses were used only for R22 systems and another set of R410a/R22 gauges and hoses were used only on R410a or any higher pressure refrigerant wouldn't hoses for the higher pressure refrigerant tent to wear out or fail sooner?

    The same could be asked about the refrigerant tubing. Wouldn't, say, a 1/4 liquid line under 350 pounds of pressure last longer than if under, say, 450 pounds of pressure?

    If so, which logically it seems so, than in years to come the newer higher pressure refrigerants would require thicker refrigerant line thickness to last as long as its R22 counter part.

    If you think I over analyze, that's fine. That's what people pay me for.

    That's as about as simple as I can make it.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  12. #25
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    Apr 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
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    2,987
    The only real problem with R-410A is it has a low critical temperature relative to R-22, about 158F compared to 205F. The higher the ambients, the higher the condensing temperatures, and the closer you get to the refrigerant's critical temperature. And the closer you get to the critical temperature, the less efficient your refrigeration cycle.

  13. #26
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    Mar 2002
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    Concord, CA
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    I haven't thought much about critical temperature since trade school. I don't recall if critical temperature is eased into or just a sudden event. Assuming it does graduate then I wonder at what temperature does the process start.

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