Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 70

Thread: Best way to charge or adjust split system.

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes

    I have been in the heating and cooling field for about 10 years now. I have been setting my AC units up by superheat. I have a chart which tells me the superheat for a specific day based on a few variables. To set the unit up I use the Outdoor Ambiant temp, Indoor Dry Bulb, and Indoor Wet Bulb Temps. This is a chart I got while at a Heil, or ICP Training. The question I have is, Will this same chart of formula work for different brands of split systems. I would think it would however I have been installing a lot of Luxaire Equipment and when I initially charge the system based on the extra length of linset and the matched coil it seems that the system is always overcharged based on my chart. Then to get my chart value I have to remove some of the freon that I put in after pumping the system down. I understand that this chart is based on having 400 CFM per ton of ac and I always
    try to install my ductwork accordingly.


    The second question I have is why do the coil temps vary so much with different equipment brands. I just but a 4 Ton 12 Seer unit in my home. The home already had the ductwork installed so I just retrofitted it. I used a 4 Ton 12 Seer Luxaire condenser with a 5 Ton Air handler and coil. I have been instructed that this will gain me a little in the effeciency. I did not however install the TXV valve I used the recommended pin instead. I understand that this hurts the Seer a bit. It seems the system has a hard time keeping up in my home. The freon is boiling at about 44F (74Lb) which seems high. (High Pressure on the Suction side) and the High pressure seems low at 175 lb of pressure. I matched the pin however it seems I may need a pin with smaller oriface. Is this a product of larger coil or of the 12 Seer of the unit. Or is my unit over charged. I added 29oz which was what the manual said for the lineset length as well as the coil installed.

    Any help would be appreciated.. Thanks.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,383
    Post Likes
    First, you can't use one chart from one OEM for EVERYTHING!

    Second, fill in these blanks for an educated answer to your question:

    'luxaire piston system'

    SP 74/44
    LP 175/92

    ST __ SH __
    LT __ SC __

    AT __
    CT __
    IDB __ IWB __

    Third, you can't charge every system by SH either.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    you can charge yours by superheat but if you have a system with a txv use subcooling, flip your chart over

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    How do you charge your systems Jultzya?

    I will go out to my unit and get you this information you asked for right now be back in 6 Minutes..

    Thanks

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    What does your abbrievation CT stand for I got the rest of them

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    please let the system run for atleast ten minutes before taking your readings

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    condensor disharge air temp

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,383
    Post Likes
    LOL ok...

    By using the OEM charging charts when available...
    SH for piston systems.
    SC for TXV systems.
    (always check the other measurement for a better analysis of the systems performance)

    Just make sure the system has stabilized, in order to get accurate data (10-15 minutes).

    CT (Condenser Temp) outlet air temperature.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,847
    Post Likes
    The second question I have is why do the coil temps vary so much with different equipment brands. I just but a 4 Ton 12 Seer unit in my home. The home already had the ductwork installed so I just retrofitted it. I used a 4 Ton 12 Seer Luxaire condenser with a 5 Ton Air handler and coil. I have been instructed that this will gain me a little in the effeciency. I did not however install the TXV valve I used the recommended pin instead. I understand that this hurts the Seer a bit. It seems the system has a hard time keeping up in my home. The freon is boiling at about 44F (74Lb) which seems high. (High Pressure on the Suction side) and the High pressure seems low at 175 lb of pressure. I matched the pin however it seems I may need a pin with smaller oriface. Is this a product of larger coil or of the 12 Seer of the unit. Or is my unit over charged. I added 29oz which was what the manual said for the lineset length as well as the coil installed.
    First of all, I agree with jultzya, one OEM's chart does not apply to all equipment out there.

    Nailing a charge on a piston system without an OEM's chart isn't a breeze but it's not all that difficult, either. By using a combination of factors, such as superheat, subcooling, delta T across indoor and outdoor coils, etc., you can get very close to the exact charge for a piston system, which incidentally is a critical charge system.

    Notice I included subcooling as one of the parameters to observe while charging. Yes, you do charge by superheat with a piston system, but knowing subcooling helps you to know how well your condenser is working. Knowing the indoor and outdoor delta T's after a charge is adjusted will help you know how well the system is performing. Knowing the superheat will tell you if the evaporator is being overfed, starved, or fed properly.

    In your case, if you live in a humid climate, your 5 ton evap on a 4 ton condenser may give you a sensible heat removal advantage but a dehumidification penalty. Especially with a piston on the system. Pistons do not regulate superheat well, so there are times your system, properly charged, will run a starved evap under high heat loads and a flooded evap under low heat loads. This condition can be aggravated by a mismatched coil and/or an incorrect piston orifice size.

    My recommendation to you is if you wish to keep this coil size, put a TXV on the system. You'll get superior superheat control, higher efficiency, better dehumidifying. You will have to shift your thinking from charging this sytem by superheat to charging by subcooling once you go with a TXV.

    If you wish to keep the system as is, tweak with the charge until you get good delta T's, superheat, subcooling, etc. Make notes of all readings when you obtain good performance from the system, such as ambient temp, amp draw, all delta T's, subcooling, etc.
    If no matter what you do this system still runs with its tongue hanging out, your piston orifice may be oversized. This would show up on your superheat reading as low superheat under normal operating conditions (flooded evap).
    Psychrometrics: the very foundation of HVAC. A comfort troubleshooter's best friend.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,383
    Post Likes
    BTW, if you take a suction temp (EST/STE) at the evap as well at the condenser, it will provide you some in-site of the systems operation.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    Ive got it covered !

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    1,753
    Post Likes

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    I only have one OEM Chart. I use it for everything. Even though it is not Ideal It is much better than most all of my competidors who many of them dont even evacuate the system after the installation. I got the Information and the SH is very low. I charged it with freon exactly how it said in the installation manual, and I believe it is over charged. As I said before this happens every damn time I do what the manual says. This is why I use my ICP Oem Chart. Appreciate the help


    SP 72LB 42F
    LP 173LB 91F
    ST 44F SH 2
    LT 80F SC 11

    OAT 78F
    IDB 76F
    IWB 63F

    On my Single OEM Chart I would like a SH of about 10 So once again the system is overcharged by doing what the installation manual says. Or is my OEM Chart wrong. Does the SEER Rating of the unit change anything. I know a TXV valve will change everything however this is a fixed oriface.

    Also my unit has been running for hours..
    Thanks for the help




  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    Did the manufacturer of your outdoor unit way in the exact charge as what the name plate says?

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Prod... I am unsure as I did not remove all of the freon and weigh it. ( The Freon Shipped within the condenser..)
    However I am sure that it seems nomatter the brand of equipment we install when we add the freon per the instructions based on the Evap coil size and the Linset length the system is always over charged. Always. Then I get to take some of the freon out that I put in. So what I usually do is use my OEM Chart and usually add none or very little. I just dont understand why this is.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    Stop adding for your lineset. What I was getting at is you cant trust the manufacturers charge. So you may or may not need to add for the lineset and evap. Pull your vacuum crack her loose and charge by superheat or subcooling.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    6,383
    Post Likes
    CT ? EST ?

    This system is definitely overcharged...

    Get the data above with a new (current) ST.

    The unit should be charged for a matching evap and usually 25' of line set length...
    (how much refrigerant are you normally adding to the system?)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Fort Worth, TX
    Posts
    11,847
    Post Likes
    Originally posted by pliscon

    SP 72LB 42F
    LP 173LB 91F
    ST 44F SH 2
    LT 80F SC 11

    OAT 78F
    IDB 76F
    IWB 63F


    Also my unit has been running for hours..
    Thanks for the help
    What is your delta T (temperature drop) across your evaporator?

    Just going by the data you've given, I'd say you're just a smidgen overcharged. Try recovering a little gas until your suction line temperature rises to 52-55 degrees and do another delta T check across the evap. Take a delta T reading before you start and another one after you make a refrigerant charge adjustment.

    Can you see what I mean by this piston system of yours being one of critical charge (charge must be damn near exact)? There's not much room for guessing!
    Psychrometrics: the very foundation of HVAC. A comfort troubleshooter's best friend.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    59
    Post Likes
    He already knows its overcharged.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    28
    Post Likes
    Thread Starter
    Oh.. The CT was 89F sorry.. What is EST?

    As far as the amount added I added .7 oz for every Foot over 15. The Coil/Condenser match said to add 15oz and I had to add 14oz for lineset.

    I am aware that this is over charged. Why does this happen on every system.. As far as factory charge I would think it would be pretty simple to put into the condenser the correct amount. Mabye a small % would be slightly incorrect however It seems every one I install is that way.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Quick Reply Quick Reply

Register Now

Please enter the name by which you would like to log-in and be known on this site.

Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Log-in

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •